Advice needed: Towing 2200lbs w/6spd & Aux fan...anticpated problems?

[ggoat!!!]

Hello, I am looking for advice from those experienced with this truck and its associated quirks/problems/expectations.

I am 90% sure I will be purchasing a new 6spd SSR soon, and will be headed west over the mountains of Utah (some 14% grades on Hwy 12) while pulling a 13ft fiberglass Scamp travel trailer equipped with electric brakes that weighs 2200lbs fully loaded. I have towed this trailer with a Dodge Caravan through this area, and it nearly killed the thing...15mph up hills in 1st gear (and yes, the van has been highly modified and is well equipped for towing...or so I thought).

I know the SSR has the power to tow; that has been established. This trailer is TINY, yet it feels like a 30ft trailer behind my other vehicles I've used in the past. I am installing lightweight aluminum rims and lighter weight less rolling resistant tires, as well as new bearings.

I have read endlessly about the cooling fan problems on these trucks, therefore I will purchase Mike's cooling fan before I even attempt to tow. Since I will be purchasing a 6 speed, how much of an issue is the overheating vs. the automatic? Since there is no transmission fluid going through the bottom of the radiator compromising it, is the 6 speed less likely to run as hot? I realize that overheating is mainly due to fan failure and its inability to keep up with the small engine compartment...but does the 6 speed generally develop less of a burdon for the fan/radiator to overcome?

I will be removing the weatherstrip as discussed here as well as the engine cover. I will tow in 4th or 5th gear on straight-aways. If the rear sags, I will install either Firestone Trailblazer "in-coil" airbag helpers or research other rear end supplement systems. As far as I know, no one makes a standard good old air-shock for the SSR or Trailblazer.

So, honestly, does this set-up pose a risk? These trailers' sole purpose is to be easy to tow by a small car. I would think the SSR would be overkill, but after my last experience, that is what I want.

Please, offer any realistic researched advice for this situation...especially regarding the overheating tendency of the 6spd vs. the automatic. I will be going up large mountain passes at low speeds in lower gears; I want to be sure that with the auxillary fan and lack of hot transmission fluid in the bottom of the radiator will decrease my chance of failure.

Please provide any information you can. Thanks again!!!

[SSRENITY]

With the precautions you plan to take, I think you'll be fine.

[ggoat!!!]

So....


Is the overheating problem as prevalent in the 6spd as the automatic? Has anyone here developed the overheating problem in a 6spd? Am I correct to assume the 6spd is less prone to run hot?

Please someone respond if they have first hand knowledge of this...

Thanks again!!!!!

[hdflstf]

Originally Posted by ggoat!!!

So....


Is the overheating problem as prevalent in the 6spd as the automatic? Has anyone here developed the overheating problem in a 6spd? Am I correct to assume the 6spd is less prone to run hot?

Please someone respond if they have first hand knowledge of this...

Thanks again!!!!!

Just got back from NM.. I have posted about a year ago some of my towing experiences ~2500 lbs (or a bit more..) and OAT of 100 to 110 deg F. There is a picture of my setup in my gallery. Also had the 'trunk' full with slicks, jack, tools, etc. Do a search and you'll find the answers you need. Bottom line is you should be fine. Tha auto trans dumps a whole bunch more heat into the cooling system, especially going up hills. 6 speed is no problem.

Can't find what I thought I posted - maybe a case of CRS...
Anyhow, I flat towed (4 wheels on the ground with a tow bar like the motorhomes do) my other car to a show 1000 miles and 2 mountain passes away. Car weight in at right around 2500 lbs and I had all that stuff in the back. As long as I was moving along I had no temp issues. I could get the temp to rise if I ran it ard going uphill in a low (2nd/3rd) gear. Most of the trip was done with the AC on and the outside temp was 100 to 110 deg. The trick for climbing the hills was to keep it in as high a gear as you can while holding your speed. I lost my fan going up the grapevine on the way home but it turned out to be a loose connection. The only times I got it hot was going uphill 100 deg + temp and accelerating through second and third (floored to near redline) temp went up pretty quick on that but came down on I seteled into a lower rpm in 4th or 5th gear going up the hills.

[ggoat!!!]

Hi Hd....thanks for your input. I've searched every forum on this site for towing information...

I have a few questions. When you say "I could get the temp to rise if I ran it hard going uphill in a low gear"...what kind of hills are you talking about, and how "high" did the temp rise? Dangerously high? When you say "ran it hard" were you doing this out of necessity? You're towing with a 6 speed, right? Remember, my towing difficulty will be enhanced by wind resistance vs. towing a car.

You say "I got hot going uphill accelerating through second and third floored near redline"...how "hot" did it get? Also, were you accelerating uphill floored in 2nd and 3rd gear because you HAD to; ie, the only way to get up the hill? Or, were you just "having fun"? Did your temperature go higher, or were you on the verge of overheating?

How high were these mountain passes?

Forgive me if I'm overly cautious, but the mountains I have to climb just recently led to an engine rebuild and 3 transmissions just this past fall in my Caravan/Scamp combo...

Thanks again!
Jeff

[dougnc]

The toilet is in the shower?

What did that baby cost you, approximately?

[jim_king]

I have an 05 6-spd and use my SSR for pool service work. I built a trailer from a FORD Ranger stepside pickup bed with an ARE bed cover on it. I use this combination 5 days a week and drive 250-350 miles per week towing the trailer. I have loaded the trailer with over 600 lbs. of cargo plus the weight of the trailer behind the SSR I'm sure the total would be over 1000 lbs. Not many hills here in Florida but we do have the heat and humidity. I also tow a double trailer with 2 jetskis on it on many weekends. I have Mike's fan kit and air dam on my SSR and never-not once-has my SSR been overheated. Vehicle temp guage stays right at 210 once it is warmed up and since Mid-May I've been running the A/C on recirculate. This is my experience and I feel the LS2 is up to the task you are getting into.

[hdflstf]

Originally Posted by ggoat!!!

Hi Hd....thanks for your input. I've searched every forum on this site for towing information...

I have a few questions. When you say "I could get the temp to rise if I ran it hard going uphill in a low gear"...what kind of hills are you talking about, and how "high" did the temp rise? Dangerously high? When you say "ran it hard" were you doing this out of necessity? You're towing with a 6 speed, right? Remember, my towing difficulty will be enhanced by wind resistance vs. towing a car.

You say "I got hot going uphill accelerating through second and third floored near redline"...how "hot" did it get? Also, were you accelerating uphill floored in 2nd and 3rd gear because you HAD to; ie, the only way to get up the hill? Or, were you just "having fun"? Did your temperature go higher, or were you on the verge of overheating?

How high were these mountain passes?

Forgive me if I'm overly cautious, but the mountains I have to climb just recently led to an engine rebuild and 3 transmissions just this past fall in my Caravan/Scamp combo...


Thanks again!
Jeff

Hills were grapevine in CA 7% grade on the hot side. Also the mountains in south Oregon on I-5. Temps went to about 235. Ran it hard - just to see what the result would be - 'having fun' once and a little bent at the 18 wheeler that cut me off. I was doing 65 and he jumped in front of me doing 15 or less. I know the brakes work..

[ggoat!!!]

Thanks Hd...I appreciate your insight.

I finally found your older post about following the 18wheeler at 30mph. I anticipate alot of slow mountain climbs on backroads going up 14% grades in Utah. Do you think the long slow steep pulls will pose a problem, if this is the time when the SSR's cooling limitations are exposed? Was that your experience???

Also, are you running Mike's aux fan???


Thanks again!


BTW...those asking about the trailer (sarcastically or not; I can't really tell )...
The trailer is a 13ft Scamp Deluxe...."Deluxe" meaning the interior is customized out of solid oak however you choose. That's what makes this tiny trailer roughly 1000 pounds heavier than a "standard" Scamp with fiberglass interior/cabinets. Mine, while being tiny, has a full bathroom with shower, gray/black water holding tanks, hot water heater, furnace, roof A/C, 2 burner stove, sink, fridge/freezer, microwave, TV, DVD, VCR, CD changer, minidisc changer, minidisc recorder, cassette player, 12 6X9's (8 mounted under the dinette seats just for fun), subwoofer, Intelli-power 80 amp converter, freshwater tank with pump, TV antenna, dual propane tanks, and two deep cycle batteries. The downside is that all this makes mine extremely heavy compared to a bare-bones Scamp. Pricewise, standard 13ft Scamps run around $6000 for a basic unit; mine, fully customized to my specs with the above equipment ran $9700 complete. It's now my home since Hurricane Katrina, and its the best thing I've ever bought.

[hdflstf]

Originally Posted by ggoat!!!

Thanks Hd...I appreciate your insight.

I finally found your older post about following the 18wheeler at 30mph. I anticipate alot of slow mountain climbs on backroads going up 14% grades in Utah. Do you think the long slow steep pulls will pose a problem, if this is the time when the SSR's cooling limitations are exposed? Was that your experience???

Also, are you running Mike's aux fan???


Thanks again!

If you have any issue a long slow climb 14% would likely show it. I can't exactly say at what point you have maxed out your SSR's capabilities. It's a combination of time, speed (airflow), altitude, grade, weight, and so on. I think you will be fine for the most part. The biggest trick is to use the highest gear that will let you keep your speed. If you are not comfortable with the 14% grades, get Mikes aux fan. I don't have one and am still not convinced that I need it as I have not been able to get the SSR to well above 235 for a sustained period.

[JimGnitecki]

Jeff: You PMed me and specifically asked for my comments.

I did not comment above because I honestly don't have a feel for whether or not you would have a problem with this setup.

I agree that a manual transmission is going to generate less heat than the automatic, by far. That's a plus.

But, I am concerned about the puny air flow of the stock cooling fan, and its propensity to fail (see past postings on this, and see my Spal dual fan posting thread).

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if you did a few things as precautions:

- Use premium fuel only. You will be provoking detonation and high IAT (incoming air temperature) readings, which will cause the computer to retard timing, which makes even more heat, so use premium fuel only, even though the LS2 can "accept" regular fuel while providing less power.

- Keep the engine rpm in the 2000 to 2500 range. Do not go lower than 2000 rpm while towing uphill with a performance engine like this, or you will be "lugging" it. I have tried unsuccessfuly previosuly on this board to explain the harmfullness of lugging, but apaprently cannot communicate it adequately, so just take my word for it: do not stress the engine with 14% grades and a 2200 lb trailer at 1200 or 1400 rpm.

- Do not attempt to ACCELERATE while already going uphill ona steep grade, as this will greatly increase the thermodynamic load.

- Be aware that on level ground, the load put on the hitch by even a 2200 lb trailer is not that much. Maybe 220 lb. vertically (the tongue weight of the trailer)and a bit horizontally to overcome wind resistance. On a 14% grade, the load is INCREASED by a FURTHER 300 lb. or so, so don't do any stupid manouvering that will add stresses to that ONE point connection.

- Keep the AC on recirculate so as to ensure that the wimpy stock cooling fan is at least running at high speed right from the get go.

- Build up a safe level of speed BEFORE hitting the steep hills, so that instead of having to maintain speed up the entire hill, you use your momentum to reduce the total work that the engine needs to accomplish.

- Consider getting at least Mike's axuiliary fan or the dual Spal fan kit that should be available any day now (the shop has been waiting for the darn fans to arrive so they can make up 3 prototpye kits).

Jim G

[Mike in AZ]

Jeff,

You are right, the 6 speed does not generate the heat that the automatic does. That is a significant difference. I won't go into the details of the system, you already know it doesn't have the capacity like my Tahoe or a Suburban. The aluminum engine transfers heat so quickly that the system is continually "in motion" and hardly ever really settles into a stable thermal transfer.

The Aux Fan is designed to act as the first line of defense for overheating. Taking into consideration that my fan airflow measurements are a gut feel/best guess, here is where it fits into the scheme of things:

Thermostat begins to open at 190
Thermostat full open at 200
Aux Fan kicks in at 210 (~800 CFM flow, pushing)
Main Fan goes to low speed at 226 (~800 CFM, pulling)
Main Fan goes to high speed at 235 (~1600 CFM, pulling)

Here is my current understanding of the computer logic for A/C use: If you have the A/C on and the fresh air selected, the Main Fan runs at low speed until 35mph, where the computer shuts it off..... If you have the A/C on and selected "recirculate", the Main Fan runs at high speed until 35mph.

All that said, I think your biggest concern area is below 35mph. Since you won't have the heat load of the converter & automatic in the system (it is in the tank that RETURNS coolant to the engine), your only heat input will be the parasitic heat generated by the engine when making power. I don't have data about the most efficient rpm for getting the most power out the driveline with the least amount of geerated heat, but I'll wager $100 it follows the torque curve.

Installing an Aux Fan will add a lot of cushion to the low speed cooling of the system. Since it is a pusher, it also helps a lot in the airflow when the main fan kicks on. When you install one, you will actually see (looking down on the condenser and radiator with the upper support removed) how pumping the air through the A/C condenser eliminates a flow restriction to the main fan and helps.

Go get the truck, drop in an Aux Fan and quit worrying. The 6-speed will do great. By the way---- before the subject comes up, the aerodynamic loading of your trailer is insignificant at speeds below 40 mph.

Hope this helps,

Mike

[Doug Adkins]

Hope this helps well i live in Ca but came to Wash to take care of Mom for awhile anyway i towed a 6x12 enclosed trailer with two Harleys in the back one softtail and one Roadking plus the trunk loaded.I have a supercharger so no power issue but when i crossed Mt Shasta and the Mt Ashland in Oreagon right at the top of each moutain i got hot not red line or nothing to pull over about but as soon as i got to top and started down it all went back to normal.I have a 2004 auto so i have no complaint about the heating issue as of yet knock on wood i figured i was around 3,000 pounds and you know if you have a trans gauge it also got hot you can almost tell the temp of Raditor and trans they almost run same temp seems like to me anyway tow it and enjoy Doug.

[dougnc]

Originally Posted by ggoat!!!

Thanks Hd...I appreciate your insight.

I finally found your older post about following the 18wheeler at 30mph. I anticipate alot of slow mountain climbs on backroads going up 14% grades in Utah. Do you think the long slow steep pulls will pose a problem, if this is the time when the SSR's cooling limitations are exposed? Was that your experience???

Also, are you running Mike's aux fan???


Thanks again!


BTW...those asking about the trailer (sarcastically or not; I can't really tell )...
The trailer is a 13ft Scamp Deluxe...."Deluxe" meaning the interior is customized out of solid oak however you choose. That's what makes this tiny trailer roughly 1000 pounds heavier than a "standard" Scamp with fiberglass interior/cabinets. Mine, while being tiny, has a full bathroom with shower, gray/black water holding tanks, hot water heater, furnace, roof A/C, 2 burner stove, sink, fridge/freezer, microwave, TV, DVD, VCR, CD changer, minidisc changer, minidisc recorder, cassette player, 12 6X9's (8 mounted under the dinette seats just for fun), subwoofer, Intelli-power 80 amp converter, freshwater tank with pump, TV antenna, dual propane tanks, and two deep cycle batteries. The downside is that all this makes mine extremely heavy compared to a bare-bones Scamp. Pricewise, standard 13ft Scamps run around $6000 for a basic unit; mine, fully customized to my specs with the above equipment ran $9700 complete. It's now my home since Hurricane Katrina, and its the best thing I've ever bought.

You have an internet connection?

I was looking for something like that. You can take showers and everything?

[ggoat!!!]

Hi Jim...

Thanks for the advice; your points are well taken. I couldn't agree more regarding premium fuel; most of my vehicles require it but "will run" on less. With the mods done on the old Caravan, I had a problem out west because I couldn't find anything greater than 91 octane west of San Antonio. My timing on that vehicle is set at 16 degrees, and it just pinged like crazy...its pre OBDII and doesn't really "self adjust" much. I had to retard the timing to 12 degrees just to stop the ping. Out the door went my power to get up hills. Any idea as to WHY 93 octane isn't available out west? Supposedly its because the higher altitude doesn't require it due to "less" O2...but I can definitely tell from first hand experience that this is NOT the case with an older vehicle like my Caravan. 91 octane in high elevations does NOT perform like 93 octane at sea level in this vehicle. I've always wondered about this, and I've NEVER found a discussion or a reason for lack of 93 and above fuel out west....Anyhoo, my other vehicles that require 93 octane for rated performance ('99 30th Anniversary Trans Am, Turbo VW Beetle, SCCA 95 Neon) have always been run with it...but it concerns me that I can't get this out west.

As far as "lugging" the engine, I've always agreed with your point. My Trans Am still has the 1st to 4th sh*t shift, and it lugs the engine terribly. I always argued that this cannot be good for an engine. I definitely will tow with the engine in the lowest gear it can safely tow at any particular incline without lugging the engine, with the A/C on recirculate.

Regarding your Spal dual fan kit...please let me know when its available. If I install Mike's fan, wouldn't I have to remove everything again to install your dual fan kit at a later date? I'd rather do it all at one time if possible...as long as the final testing is done; I'd hate to get in the middle of nowhere in Utah (not where I'd want to be for any length of quality time) to find out there was a problem (not saying there would be or judging your work). But then again, it would really give the entire system an amazing work-out.



Mike...thanks again for your amazing workability and lending out a hand to a total stranger. Your reputation and integrity simply amaze me. There aren't many people in this world who bend over backwards like you do to help someone.

As far as cycling of the stock fan, I have read here and there throughout threads here regarding changing of the temperature at which the fans operate. How is this done? What would be beneficial? Do you think it wise to have the fans come on earlier???

On the Caravan, one thing I did was wire a switch with appropriate relays on the dash to turn on both the radiator fan as well as the A/C condenser fan (I realize the A/C fan does nothing for the coolant temperature, but I figured ANY increased airflow under the hood couldn't hurt to expel heat). This set-up was simple, and it worked AMAZINGLY well while driving through the mountains of Arizona; even with the steep climbs between Strawberry, Pine, and Payson/Phoenix, I noticed a very significant drop on my temperature gauge; at LEAST a full 1/8" lower average temperature readings. And remember, some of this was pulling 7000 pounds total (van and trailer) at 20mph in 1st gear. The wiring of the Caravan is so primitive that adding the relays posed no threat nor did it interfere with the normal computer controlled operation of the fans. But, it definitely helped prevent overheating. (BTW, my engine failure in Strawberry was with the van solo, and wasn't related to the engine overheating per say; the Caravan has a plastic stopcock at the bottom of the radiator that broke, and I lost all coolant without knowing it. I was driving up the huge climb from Pine to Strawberry when it happened, and the temperature gauge showed the engine to be "cool" since the sensor measures the temperature of the coolant, NOT the temperature of the engine...and, since there was no coolant in the engine to measure, I had no way of knowing the engine was hot until I heard faint pinging...I turned on my aux fans and turned the heater to full hot to pull heat off the engine...and no heat came out. Engine failure occured about 20 seconds later when I finally found a pull-out to stop at.)

My point here is that the manual on/off switch for the fans truly helped in this particular application; I also wired an LED on the dash to come on when my fan actually activated, so that I could tell exactly when the fan was working and when it was not. It was GREAT assurance to know that my cooling fans were even coming on with this LED. How feasible would a manual switch be, and do you think it would be warranted in a situation like this???



Doug....the trailer has standard cable/phone connections. But, I've moved to the technology of 2 years ago and have a WiFi card...




Thanks everyone SO much for your help!!!



Jeff

[JimGnitecki]

Mike's auxiliary fan can be installed first. You will NOT disturb that installation when installing the dual Spal setup, as Mike's fan is located in FRONT of the radiator (it's a "pusher").

I have been running my dual Spal kit for 3 or 4 weeks now, and have had zero issues. And, it's hard to imagine any fan setup less trustworthy than the stock fan.

The "fan on" and "fan off" temperature points can be adjusted wthin the computer for BOTH low speed and high speed on the stock fan, individually. THis requires use of a tuning software package. The new target temperature point have been published on this website multiple times - just do a search using "fan on".

Jim G

[WOW_FCTR]

ggoat,

For the TransAm, you could always buy an add on that eliminates the 1 to 4 shift crap. Or you can just go faster in 1st until you pass the RPM's that will force it into 4th.


For extreme times, like towing, could you use an octane booster, to avoid the ping when you can't get 93 octane?

[ggoat!!!]

Hi Wow...

Yes, I always have been going to get the skip shift eliminator for the Trans Am...but for some reason just never have. Its one of those situations that you always say you're going to do, but just for no reason have never done it...

As far as the octane boost....I purchased several cans of different brands initially after I couldn't find anything higher than 91 octane out west for my Caravan, prior to retarding the timing. It did NOTHING for the pinging. Octane boost literally made no difference. I still have a can of the 108 stuff; I found it useless.

I still find it odd how I've never found any sort of write-up anywhere about the unavailability of anything higher than 91 octane out west, when some cars clearly state to use nothing less than 93?????

Thanks again!
Jeff

[hdflstf]

Originally Posted by ggoat!!!

Hi Wow...

Yes, I always have been going to get the skip shift eliminator for the Trans Am...but for some reason just never have. Its one of those situations that you always say you're going to do, but just for no reason have never done it...

As far as the octane boost....I purchased several cans of different brands initially after I couldn't find anything higher than 91 octane out west for my Caravan, prior to retarding the timing. It did NOTHING for the pinging. Octane boost literally made no difference. I still have a can of the 108 stuff; I found it useless.

I still find it odd how I've never found any sort of write-up anywhere about the unavailability of anything higher than 91 octane out west, when some cars clearly state to use nothing less than 93?????

Thanks again!
Jeff

FWIW - I've had no issues with the 91 out west (use it every day). No pinging stock and no pinging with the Westers tune.

BTW - Give us a report after your forst tow and let us know how it works out. Could be helpful for future reference..