I got one for you, after sitting for a few minutes the starter relay/bendix would not engage
everything else was functioning, instrument cluster, HVAC, power top etc.
I tried working the shifter to see if it was the neutral safety switch, still nothing down to the starter.
Just silence
so... being at a loss and 50 miles from home I disconnected the positive battery terminal, reconnected and it started
Was this just a coincidence or did it really reboot something and cause it to start??
UPDATE September 2011
I had a spare ignition switch so I changed that out, installed a new battery, cleaned, reinstalled all 4 grounding points back in June.
It has happened twice since these maintenance procedures have been preformed. Once at the Penticton Beach Cruise and another one about 3000 kilometers later.
Disconnecting the battery cable and reattaching caused the starter system to function properly on both occasions.
Last edited by twooldfarmers; 09-10-2011 at 03:22 PM.
Reason: spelling
Bad grounding wires have been reported to cause odd problems. How did the battery grounding wire look?
funny you should mention that as last week as matter of routine maintenance for me I removed the battery ground at the frame where it comes directly off the battery, checked it for cleanliness and reattached with plenty of grease during reattachment and over the bolt and cable to prevent any corrosion. This would have been a simple fix had it been the problem. I recall replying to a thread last week where someone was having some gremlins in their R and I said first and always check your grounds.
changed out the old switch last night and popped the grey cover off the old switch to examine the contacts.
They appeared to be in perfect condition so I would find it unlikely that last weeks Gremlins where caused by 'the switch'. that would have been a nice easy fix. Whatever it is it will likely return at some inopportune time as if there is ever a great time for your started to lock out.
I also went through the ground connections, the direct cable off the battery, plus the small one under the drivers seat area on the frame and the one attached to the upper cowl in the engine compartment on the drivers side, all where clean and tight although there was no star washers under either of the to small connector points ahead of the main battery negative cable connect point.
I am going to pick up 16 feet of #6 wire and run direct from the battery negative cable frame grounding point the engine bay 'boost' point just as a possible problem solver.
IMO the main problem with the SSR Gremlins is that everyone of these units was a prototype. The first year of production of any other model would likely be in the neighbourhood of 30 to 200,000 units and by the second year the niggles have sometimes been addressed, but not always.
At 24,000+ units they where just getting spooled up when they shutter' down for good. So we are the continuing R&D. Enjoy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by twooldfarmers
I got one for you, after sitting for a few minutes the starter would not engage
everything else was functioning, instrument cluster, HVAC etc.
tried working the shifter to see if it was the neutral safety switch, nothing
so... being at a loss and 50 miles from home I disconnected the positive battery terminal, reconnected and it started
Was this just a coincidence or did it really reboot something and cause it to start??
I have a spare ignition switch in the consul
Last edited by twooldfarmers; 05-30-2011 at 06:38 AM.
Reason: battery ground is next
There are two grounds coming off of the main battery connection. One goes to the body of the truck and the other goes to the frame of the truck. The cable, itself, is only about 8" long. The engine is bonded to the chassis by a bonding strap directly below the power steering pump on the top of the frame. I've not seen the grounding point you speak about near the jump start box. There are so many ground paths for the battery to connect to the engine, that I am skeptical about the benefit of adding another ground. here's a few questions that might lead you elsewhere......
When you could not get the starter to engage, did you hear the starter solenoid clicking when you turned the key? If so, then you may have a problem with the starter. This is extremely rare, but you could have a strange connection at the starter, a bad spot on the armature or something odd with the heavy wiring attachment to the starter.
If you did not hear the solenoid clicking, I would suspect that you have something out of order with fuse #23, fuse #20 or relay #43. You might find some issue there. Attached are the 2006 schematics for your reference. (note: the 6 speed schematic is slightly different there are two clutch switches instead of the park/neutral switch) You can see that there is NOT a direct connection from the start switch to the solenoid..... the ECM is in the middle of everything. This may explain why pulling power off the computer may have fixed your issue......
It's really hard to troubleshoot an intermittent issue when it's working. I would be inclined to have a testing plan in my hip pocket for the next time this happens. Have reference materials and a simple VOM stowed in the truck along with a sequential list of things to check already written out so that you can run this to root cause.
Regards,
Mike
__________________ Trust and Generosity are contagious.
Thanks for this Mike, I will print this and have a meter in the R. I do already have the Helm manuals behind the passenger seat in preparation for the trip to Pentiction at the end of June. I am replacing the battery today as it is 4 1/2 years old just as a matter of preventative maintenance given I will be 700 miles from home.
Driving GM products has put me in the habit of buying the Helm manuals for everything I drive and absolutely never leaving the yard without them. Best 150 bucks anyone can spend. Equal to about one hours 'shop rate' plus their 'miscellaneous theft'. Sorry I meant the 11% for each billable hour for shop supplies that they apply here, what they do to people just galls me. How can some silicon and rags cost more than a couple of dollars on any job no matter how large. Sorry for the rant.
Anyway when I experienced the 'no start' a few weeks back there was nothing from the starter solenoid which would indicate as you say an unlikelihood that a poor ground was the culprit. That is unfortunate as that would have been an easy fix.
I will have to take a technical approach to solving this one. Wish me luck.
I have had a couple times when the Park/Neutral switch was not quite engaged and it gave me two different symptoms.... but the root cause was the same - - 1)No start 2)Could not get key out of the ignition.
In both cases, I just needed to push the gear selector slightly forward to get the switch to make. I know it's an alignment issue and I'll address it next time I have the console open.
Removing the positive cable at the jump box has worked for me several times on issues as you've described, as well as window cycling and roof cycling (thanks to X Man for turning me on to this "fix"). I have had no further issues after doing this.
I can't tell you the cause, or the "why" this works, but it does sometimes, even though there are no code faults showing.
The ignition switch has been blamed for literally hundreds of problems, but as you did, remove it, take the cover off and inspect the contacts. If they're not burned or corroded, it is probably not the problem.
My SSR: Pearl over UV tu-tone - "PurLple" w/ custom billet rallye wheels/baby moons & wide whitewalls, 4:56s
I'll just throw this in here as a point to ponder, sorry for the hijack Richard.
A couple years ago in Penticton I could turn the engine off and restart it but the key wouldn't turn enough for me to take it out and it stayed in the power position thus drained the battery. Also, the door locks popped "up" - this had me thinking that the computer knew I was in park. But if I wasn't in park why did the engine restart? Anyway, the local dealership brought it inside for the night and changed the ignition switch the next morning. That did not fix the problem. Did I mention I had an after market shifter knob? It was slightly longer and would pinch my fingers between the dash when I shifted into park. So, being the wise one and always travelling with the OEM knob, I swapped out the after market and installed the OEM. TA DA!!! All fixed. The shifter hadn't been pushed all the way forward and therefore the key wouldn't work.
__________________ SANDY
lots of photographs in My Gallery
well thank you everyone for their input as it gives us all 'things to try' in the event of a Gremlin surfacing the way they do from time to time, without fail it seems.
Thanks heavens we all have each other as I said earlier every one of these lil' darlins' is a prototype.
I had the same frustrating problem last year. I finally replaced the starter. This solved my problem. It seems that the starter had a "dead spot", which caused a random -no starter function.
I see that you have an '05 model.
Has the battery been replaced or it it the original?
I recently had to have a Delco battery replaced in the wife's Corvette and the battery was only two years old.
Sometimes, batteries like people just don't last as long as we think they should and sometimes a dead cell will act fine most of the time and at other times will not start the vehicle.
On another note, the next time (if there is a next time see if you can have someone hold the key in the start position while you (safely of course) jiggle the cables near the battery and then near the junction box under the hood.
In the past, I've had cables that were not "crimped" properly at the tips, and once I had an insulated cable that was broken inside the insulation.
in the time since the 'no start' incident I have checked all the grounds, previous to the incident itself I had only removed the connection directly off the battery to the frame. I have since removed all and reinstalled but they where as clean as a whistle.
I replaced the ignition switch and I disassembled the old one and found the contacts to be in new condition with only the hint of a dark spot on one contact. I have replaced the battery also but the date code was February of 07 so it was not the original Delco and it held up to a 'load test' very well but it is residing in the yard tractor now.
So....... the question remains where is that mysterious lurking Gremlin inside the thing we are so passionate about?
In the mean time I need to pack for Penticton as I am leaving in the morning with all things crossed that trouble does not leave me standing at the side of the road wishing I had bought that silver SL600 instead.
Paul I had a repeat of the Gremlin in the start system of the R recently and disconnecting the battery overnight had it start in the morning.
Do you recall prior to replacing your starter did your solenoid click when you tried to engage the starter?? My trouble is that when it decides not to work I 'got nothing'. Not a peep from the solenoid, just dead silence. Something like the dreaded 'blue screen' on the computer monitor milliseconds before the crash of the hard drive.
Richard
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsciortino
I had the same frustrating problem last year. I finally replaced the starter. This solved my problem. It seems that the starter had a "dead spot", which caused a random -no starter function.
Paul I had a repeat of the Gremlin in the start system of the R recently and disconnecting the battery overnight had it start in the morning.
Do you recall prior to replacing your starter did your solenoid click when you tried to engage the starter?? My trouble is that when it decides not to work I 'got nothing'. Not a peep from the solenoid, just dead silence. Something like the dreaded 'blue screen' on the computer monitor milliseconds before the crash of the hard drive.
Richard
You might need to replace the starter. But on automatics move the shift lever from "park" to "neutral" and then back to "park" again next time it happens. I would not want to be on a road trip with a starter problem
Having the same problem. So far only had the no start when truck has been on a road trip. can stop the truck and restart right away, but leave it sit for five minutes and get nothing.Go back to truck 30 minutes later and it starts. Also changed the ignition switch. Cruised around for an hour trying to duplicate the problem ,took it to the mechanics and the dam thing started every time. Please let me know if you have any luck with you truck.
Sorry for replying so late. When I tried to start, I got nothing. Sometimes, I would move the shifter, open and close windows, door locks, etc. It would usually start eventually. I had a mechanic look at it but he could never get it to not start. So he couldn't test it. He did check the wires at the starter and they were tight. I read something about a problem with a "dead spot" on a starter. It can cause intermittent starting problems. I finally replaced the starter. I haven't had a problem since then. It has been about 8 months.
I have had three 'no crank' episodes this summer, first one in May. Another while on the Wine Country Cruise while at the SSR meet in Penticton and then another here at the lake about two weeks ago.
Now each time it does crank once I disconnected the negative cable at the battery and wait. The last time a few weeks ago it was getting rather dark and it did not start when I reconnected the cable so I left it over night and it did start in the morning. Perhaps I did not wait long enough for something to 'discharge' and then allow the system to reboot itself on reconnection. This is a huge mystery for all of us. A GM technician recently suggested swapping relays around in the under hood junction box. He thinks that the starter relay will likely be the same as another one in the panel. I will do that.
I have my doubts that this is a dead spot because in all my years of wrenching if your starter develops and stops on a dead spot only manually pinching it off that spot will yield a crank. Disconnecting the battery would have no effect on that problem.
So we shall just have to keep a vigil amongst us and perhaps one of us wil stumble upon whatever Gremlin that has settled in.
I am sure you saw Stephen Fenner at the show in shine in Humbolt. I spoke to him last night and he took a duck in the grill and hood on the way back in to Saskatoon. He thinks maybe 4K in damages. He will be going to Flagstaff with a huge dent in his hood as there is no time to repair as the parts have to come out of Michigan for a start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touchwood
Having the same problem. So far only had the no start when truck has been on a road trip. can stop the truck and restart right away, but leave it sit for five minutes and get nothing.Go back to truck 30 minutes later and it starts. Also changed the ignition switch. Cruised around for an hour trying to duplicate the problem ,took it to the mechanics and the dam thing started every time. Please let me know if you have any luck with you truck.
OK Guys,
It may not have been a dead spot on the starter, but I'm sure something was internally wrong with the starter. I have a 04 automatic with about 35,000 miles. I had previously changed the battery, ignition switch, checked all grounds and connections,added a third ground wire, moved the shifter, opened and closed the windows, locked and unlocked the locks, fasted and prayed (just kidding).It always started but it took a while. At first the problem occurred every couple of months. Later it was happening a couple of times a week. I was running out of possibilities. After changing the starter - I haven't had even a hint of the mysterious random "no start" problem. I'm glad I could finally resolve my problem by changing the starter. I hope this helps someone who is experiencing the same problem.
just spent the weekend with Steve and Kim. the 'duck dent' is sure there. I think he said he nailed it just passed the junction of 2 and 5 on the way back from the show. I never asked him anything about the shine in Humbolt after I talked to him a week ago. ???
now about the no signal to the starter solenoid Gremlin... nope never happened on a cold start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touchwood
Are you sure Stephen was in Humboldt, did not see him or his truck. Has your starting problem happened when truck was cold?
question.
can you remember if when you had 'the situation' did you have anything and by that I mean did your solenoid click in an attempt to throw the bendix into the starter or was it like my situation which is one of total silence. While the HVAC, windows, top, audio systems all function twisting the key to the start position yields nothing, just silence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsciortino
OK Guys,
It may not have been a dead spot on the starter, but I'm sure something was internally wrong with the starter. I have a 04 automatic with about 35,000 miles. I had previously changed the battery, ignition switch, checked all grounds and connections,added a third ground wire, moved the shifter, opened and closed the windows, locked and unlocked the locks, fasted and prayed (just kidding).It always started but it took a while. At first the problem occurred every couple of months. Later it was happening a couple of times a week. I was running out of possibilities. After changing the starter - I haven't had even a hint of the mysterious random "no start" problem. I'm glad I could finally resolve my problem by changing the starter. I hope this helps someone who is experiencing the same problem.
for me when it happens there is not a peep but all other electrics such as gauges, HVAC, audio, and top function as normal.......
now for you Paul my guess is that your solenoid was pulling the bendix into the starter but that the starter would not respond
is that correct ?
if it was the situation then yes that would indicate a dead spot on your commutator but if when you where rolling the ignition switch all the way forward to the 'start' position and you had nothing but silence then the problem was occurring ahead of the starter itself.
just what was you exact situation prior to replacement of the starter itself ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsciortino
No click, no noise at all.
Last edited by twooldfarmers; 09-09-2011 at 01:59 PM.
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SANDY
see if you can have someone hold the key in the start position while you (safely of course) jiggle the cables near the battery and then near the junction box under the hood.
ed around for an hour trying to duplicate the problem ,took it to the mechanics and the dam thing started every time. Please let me know if you have any luck with you truck.
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