GM Design Chief Doesn't Like Retro Look

[Flassh]

The unfortunate thing is, it seems most of the buying public wants drab utilitarian vehicles - hence the Impala is a best seller, and the SSR is done.

The number of Camaros and Challengers sold just doesn't make a whole lot of difference to the car companies bottom line, but getting excited about their neat niche vehicles translates into sales of Malibu Maxes, Dodge Caravans, and full size pickups with 8 foot boxes.

The neat stuff really only matters in how effective it is in getting the company into print and TV. The SSR did that job well, and so does the Corvette. The profits from Z06 sales are a drop in the bucket in the big picture, but the magazines love it, and Chevy's image gains from it.

In the same vein, the appearance of the Shelby GT 500 will do wonders for the sale of pickups and that ultimate peak of design, the full size Ford sedan (I think it's a 500, but paid so little attention to it that I'm not sure.) I guess I'll notice it when I go into a Ford showroom to drool on the Shelby.

By the way, RedTN - if GM's styling is so bad, how did you end up with 40 of them?

I wonder what the reaction was when GM came up with the 59 Impala. I remember thinking it was a pretty strange look, but it did sell pretty good. The 53 Corvette was hammered when it came out, and so was the 63 Vette - but now, they are best sellers.

We could go on forever beating up on designers - I guess it will all depend on how many units get delivered over the long haul.

Ray



Ray

[REBEL]

The muscle car came from the kids thinking sleeper. We need G.M. to offer a simple plain Jane with room to hop up. This was a great chance to do that. But the new Camero so far looks like it’s all done up, loaded with creature features.

When looking at the new camaro "concept" I see upper level, refined, socialite, not bad boy muscle. I think it's a shame to waste the branding.
And YES it is impossible to please everyone. I’m Happy and done on this topic.

[Donnysan]

Originally Posted by Flassh

In the same vein, the appearance of the Shelby GT 500 will do wonders for the sale of pickups and that ultimate peak of design, the full size Ford sedan (I think it's a 500, but paid so little attention to it that I'm not sure.) I guess I'll notice it when I go into a Ford showroom to drool on the Shelby.

The full size Ford is the same platform it's been for a long time - the Panther, i.e. the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. There was some talk about Ford making the Crown Vic a fleet purchase only, but that didn't happen. Grand Marquis are Mercury's bread and butter cars.

The Five Hundred is a good car (as is it's Mercury brother), and the Fusion is also good (Milan for Mercury, Zepher for Lincoln), but these are a tad smaller than the Taurus/Sable, which is not considered full size.

You are right about the Shelby, they'll sell out the first production run. When they can sell one that hasn't even been built for $600K at Barrett-Jackson, you gotta know it's gonna be hot. Ford dealers are taking pre-orders, the one I am familiar with requires a $5,000 deposit to get on the >lottery< for the first cars. I heard from a friend with an inside contact at a dealer that some are auctioning off the first car to the highest bidder -- person with the highest bid over MSRP get's it, minimum $5,000. Another told me he just put a $10,000 cash deposit NON REFUNDABLE on a Shelby to get one of the first ones at his dealership.

Ford has the market to itself right now, time for DC and Chevy to get with it.

[Marc NY]

This topic is a great one! I do enjoy reading everyone's opinions... however it really is about the Camaro and GM etc and not the SSR so I will now move it to the appropriate forum.

Please continue to share your views pro or con...

[Danko]

RedTn, You are ignorant about the design process. You are blaming product decisions upon designers. There are departments called Program Management and Product Development and Strategic Planning and Marketing and many others that decide what type of vehicle should be produced. Then management has meetings and decides upon more contraints and tells the designers to do something with this pile of musthaves and mustnothaves. Then Manufacturing gets into the act and says the plant cannot handle that many variants and the Stamping guys say they cannot have a crease like that without splitting the stampings, etc. It is like someone giving me some flour, water and eggs and you complain the finished product is not sweet enough. It is NOT designers' fault. Then, after all that work is done, some old fart like Iacocca comes in to view the "final product" and says something stupid like; "Where's my landau top and bumper guards and fake wire wheels?" (true story) So even after the designers do what they are told to do, upper management can screw it all up. After too many years of too few successes, they realize their inabilities and hire Lutz to rescue them but even Lutz can only do so much so fast.

[RedTn.SSR]

Flassh, You asked why I had bought 40 GM vehicles if I didn't like the designs. My answer is that I bought a lot of them in the 60's & early 70's when their designs were pretty sharp. Then a lot of them were later model pick-up trucks which continue to have sharp designs. My last GM auto purchase was in 1995 when I bought a new Impala SS which I still have. Been buying GMC & Chevy trucks since then. I guess my 2003 SSR is considered a truck. I think I have earned the right to voice displeasure with GM by being such a loyal customer for over 40 yrs. Nothing would make me any happier than to see GM regain the sales and market share that it once had. I just don't see those type vehicles coming off GM's assembly lines at this time. The buying customers are voting with their wallets and as GM's SOM declines the competition's rises. GM must do something to stop erosion of sales and the only answer is to design and build what the customer wants and must have. I just wish they were more receptive to the customers suggestions and ideas.

[RedTn.SSR]

Danko, Your probably right. I probably am, as you said,"ignorant about the design process". I'm just a poor ole, red-neck, turnip farmer who buys a new vehicle each year. I could care less about all the depts. and committees and approvals and all that stuff you listed. As a buying customer all I care about at the end of the day is the final product that rolls off the GM assembly lines that I will decide to purchase or not to purchase. They build something I like, I'll buy it. If they don't, I'll buy something else. There's some 100,000 ex-GM employees that have lost their jobs over the past 5 yrs. that probably wish there had been more GM products that customers like myself had wanted to buy. If you build it they will come!

[Flassh]

I think the ultimate example of GM having way too many step to go through to get a vehicle to market was the original Nomad concept. It was drop dead gorgeous. Built on a decent platform, with the range of high performance engines GM has available, it would have been a home run.

Instead, it gets shelved, Chrysler comes out with the Magnum which goes over like nothing else in years, and now, they'll supposedly attempt to resurect it on the Solstice frame with a 4 banger.

I'll bet the stylists and designers who came up with that concept are having a hard time, as they watch the head honchos eat crow over their decision to dump it.

It's been said before, but the info in SSR An American Original makes it clear that the SSR coming to life is a friggin miracle amidst the firewalls of GM's bureaucracy. It only made it because some decision makers said I like it, I want it. And for that, I thank them. It's too bad they're going to take some serious flak over its lack of sales success.

Many of GM's greatest successes came about because some forward thinking people managed to sidestep the rules, find some loopholes, and get it done. Best example, John Delorean stuffing a big engine in a compact car, calling it the GTO, and starting the muscle car revolutionwhile the brass are scratching their heads trying to figure out how he managed to do that.

I think GM needs a new department, stuffed with their most imaginative designers, best engineers, and balls to the wall marketing people. Insulate them from the suits so they're not having to look over their shoulders afraid to make a mistake, give them a decent budget (it would be peanuts in GM's big picture) Call it the "lets get it done guys", give them free reign, and let them take more product like the SSR to market. Start with the Camaro, bring on the Nomad, build a utility/panel on the SSR platform (way cheaper without the top mechanism), bring back a midsize performance car. (no - the GTO is a swing and a miss on styling, no matter how well it works) .

Damn that would be a fun project. There's no doubt the market is ready for performance vehicles, and right now Chrysler and Ford are in position to take advantage of it - GM isn't.

Ford did it with the SVT group, Chrysler has the SRT group - both are doing some great stuff.

Ray

[perinati]

What ever happened to this design? I think it looks way better then that one. IMO


Perinati

[Flassh]

I remember seeing this design a while back. Didn't like the sides - too plasticy looking, but the nose is spectacular. If they graft that nose onto the profile and back end they have now, it would be a sweet looking car.

That would raise some goose bumps on a lot of Camaro lovers. OK - picture the first Camaro SS 427 on stage at Barrett Jackson next year. How high would the bidding go?

Ray

[Danko]

flassh, You are right about putting the right group together, sort of like Ford's SVT team but you really need to keep the marketing jerks FAR away. I was always disappointed with the marketing types. Everything was a new game for them and they had all the answers except why their last idea flopped. Marketing sucks! Make a good vehicle and you do not need marketing or rebates.

[Flassh]

A report on CNN this afternoon was spouting serious doom and gloom for Ford as well.. Their marketshare has been deteriorating for 10 years as well, and their percentage marketshare is at its lowest level in 80 years.

That can't be good either, and is a bit surprising considering the success of their pickups and the Mustang.

Ray

[Flassh]

Danko,

You might be right about the marketing side of the equation. The SSR wasn't at the Vancouver Auto Show in March of 03 - no prototype, no signage, etc.

The yellow one at the March 04 show was locked up with the roof up, parked on the most noticeable corner of the main floor display. No signage, no one showing how the roof worked. When anyone asked if they could see the roof working, the reply was sorry - don't know where the keys are. No one could get inside to check out how it felt to be inside one. How difficult would it have been to pay some University student 10 bucks an hour to put the top up and down every 15 minutes to get people excited, and protect it from vandalism (that was the excuse they gave me for leaving it locked up.) GM paid an insane amount of money for the space, the displays, and for their "product specialists" to be there. The SSR could have been the hit of the show, but instead, people were scratching their heads and saying things like "what is it?" - "It must be a prototype" "I wonder what those lines in the roof are for - maybe you can put the top in the back" Drove me crazy to hang around the display for 20 minutes or so and realize how much better they could have marketed the SSR.

March 05 - one aqua blur, buried in the corner of the concourse with the pickups - not even in their prime show space on the main floor. Of course it was locked up with the top up.

The damned thing is a convertible - that's the part that gets people excited. Why would you keep it a secret two years in a row?

Ray

[dougnc]

In IBD I read something that really stuck. A business writer is talking about how large companies become isolated from their customers and the world. He then writes something like this:

"A good example is GM. GM's management seems to have no idea that the majority of Americans drive foreign cars."

I love my SSR, but this thread really brings home that idea.

[dougnc]

Originally Posted by Flassh

Danko,

You might be right about the marketing side of the equation. The SSR wasn't at the Vancouver Auto Show in March of 03 - no prototype, no signage, etc.

The yellow one at the March 04 show was locked up with the roof up, parked on the most noticeable corner of the main floor display. No signage, no one showing how the roof worked. When anyone asked if they could see the roof working, the reply was sorry - don't know where the keys are. No one could get inside to check out how it felt to be inside one. How difficult would it have been to pay some University student 10 bucks an hour to put the top up and down every 15 minutes to get people excited, and protect it from vandalism (that was the excuse they gave me for leaving it locked up.) GM paid an insane amount of money for the space, the displays, and for their "product specialists" to be there. The SSR could have been the hit of the show, but instead, people were scratching their heads and saying things like "what is it?" - "It must be a prototype" "I wonder what those lines in the roof are for - maybe you can put the top in the back" Drove me crazy to hang around the display for 20 minutes or so and realize how much better they could have marketed the SSR.

March 05 - one aqua blur, buried in the corner of the concourse with the pickups - not even in their prime show space on the main floor. Of course it was locked up with the top up.

The damned thing is a convertible - that's the part that gets people excited. Why would you keep it a secret two years in a row?

Ray

That's sad. The only reason I even looked at a Chevy was because I saw an animated gif of the SSR on yahoo's main page, with the top going up and down.

[dougnc]

Originally Posted by REBEL

The muscle car came from the kids thinking sleeper. We need G.M. to offer a simple plain Jane with room to hop up. This was a great chance to do that. But the new Camero so far looks like it’s all done up, loaded with creature features.

When looking at the new camaro "concept" I see upper level, refined, socialite, not bad boy muscle. I think it's a shame to waste the branding.
And YES it is impossible to please everyone. I’m Happy and done on this topic.

Yea. The 60's Camaro was cheap and easy to work on. It's so odd that the Japanese seem to understand this, and actually market cheap sporty cars to kids.

[woohoo]

Don't matter to me what they build. I've got my SSR and I don't care about the others anymore.

[SS My R]

Originally Posted by Flassh

I really like the Camaro concept, but if they toned down the nose a bit it would look great. With the new engines coming out of Detroit, we may be headed for a new and exciting muscle era.

Ray

Yep, they could come out with a turbo hydro.

[turnheadz]

I don't mind the new Camaro look. But I don't intend to buy one anyway now that I have my SSR
Before we bought our new Camaro SS in '02, I called GM about the BelAir that they had put out as a concept. I liked it, would have bought one, but GM said no go.

[eric-mpd]

Originally Posted by Marc NY

To me the challenger looks too much like the original. To make the Camaro look almost exactly like the original version is not what I believe GM should do. By tweeking the interior and few other minor items that concept vehicle would be a true HOT seller in my book.

The comment about the challenger looking to much like the original is my opinion also. And not quite as good! The Camaro blends the old and new together much better IMO. Its a fine looking car!
One thing I have vowed, Not to own another Chrysler. They can credit my attitude to the way our five star dealer took care of our warrenty issues last new vehicle I bought.

[The Saint]

If chevy is trying to appeal to us baby boomers I think this new "camaro" will miss the mark. But it could be a hit with the younger driver's if they can afford it. I am not brand committed I will buy most likely North American whatever I can't resist. The new camaro is not that car to me.

The Saint

[Chick]

- Paint it Blue, put some Rally Strips on it, front to back, and I'm in Heaven -
- I've owned three Camaro's -
- Blue 68 SS 396 4 Spd - White 74 Z28 4 Spd - Red 95 Z28 6 Spd -

I think Chevrolet could turn this into a real winner. I like the work Ford did with the Mustang, every time I see one it reminds me of the old days when I would go hunting for them. My brother used to hunt for them also - in his Volkswagen ! Yes, it still had a VW engine in it... well sorta, had a terrible time keeping the Blower belt in one piece and the rear axles straight. My point is is was a nice job, but not exciting. As I look at the Dodge I get the same feelings, nice, a lot of heritage but not very exciting. Back to the Camaro... The heritage is there, but with a new aggressive look - it clearly tells me "I am bad and I'm not your fathers hot rod, I'm meaner and I'm faster". Every generation change to the Camaro's that I have owned has impressed me with the improvements made and my last one was one of the best. To the future...

My $0.02 - Chick