LS2 rebuild and upgrades - Page 2 - Chevy SSR Forum
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post #31 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-07-2018, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Auggie Doggie View Post
I think getting rid of the Y pipe is one of the most important things in the exhaust system. You get good flow with the stock manifolds or the headers but then you force all that scavenging into one small pipe and into the muffler. Need to have two cats and two pipes all the way back. That is what I did and it seems to work good and makes a big difference.
My GHL Old School true dual exhaust system was supplied with two high flow cats and two 2 1/2" pipes all the way back - no crossover, and the pipes are equal length. Mike in AZ engineered the system, and I really don't want to dismember it.

First photo is the stock system. Second and third photo are of the front 2/3 of the GHL system. The back sections hadn't been installed when the photos were taken. The long pipe from the driver's side becomes the short pipe on the passenger's side at the rear. The short passenger's side pipe goes across to the driver's side at the rear, equalizing the overall length of the pipes. Photos were taken at the muffler shop the day the system was being installed, so are at least 10 yrs old - multiple changes underneath since then. The midsection was later replaced with a new one with longer mufflers to quiet it down some. Pretty obvious from the photos that exhaust flows straight through the mufflers, especially under hard acceleration.

I'm willing to compromise on performance to minimize the physical size and heat of the exhaust system under the hood - plus I don't want to spend the extra $2500 or so it would cost to put in headers by the time I included new cats, the cost of ceramic coating them, and the cost of modifying the existing exhaust system to connect to the headers. I'll do some fine tuning on the roof of the manifolds to match them to the exhaust ports on the heads, and settle for whatever performance gain that gets me.

If Jim Gnitecki is correct with his theory that a slightly fine tuned stock manifold system will provide 2/3 of the performance of headers, adding ceramic coating inside the manifolds, a bit of fine tuning of the ports, and an exhaust system that flows better than stock should get me to at least that 2/3 performance level. The engine builder has a very similar opinion. I asked him about doing some porting on the exhaust side of the heads. He felt it was a waste of time and money for me, even though it would be good revenue for him.

Added the fourth photo showing the point where the two exhaust pipes cross above the rear axle.

Also added a photo of the 4" resonator which did an amazing job of cutting down the sharp popping sounds of the exhaust system.
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post #32 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2018, 12:42 AM Thread Starter
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Is this the source of my problems?

The nagging problem that led to a blown engine was a fairly consistent stumble around 5200 rpm. Joe said the throttle blade was closing on acceleration, which indicated I was getting off the throttle. He needed a foot to the floor acceleration run to see if the stumble was still there. Damn - that truck took off like I had never experienced, and NO MISS!!!!

I didn't really clue in till after I limped the truck back home, and spent some time replaying our conversation.

I know I wasn't backing off the throttle during acceleration runs, so I finally came to the conclusion that my consistent stumble may have been due to a defective accelerator sensor, with a dead spot that was sending bad information to the throttle body. I have no immediate way of confirming that, but first course of action was to replace the accelerator sensor, then do some acceleration runs once the new engine is broken in and see if the stumble is gone.

If it's still there, the next likely problem area would be an expensive polished Corvette throttle body. The accelerator sensor was in the $200 range (Canadian) so much cheaper than the throttle body, and the first to be eliminated as a source of the problem.

If it fixes the problem, it would have been a bunch cheaper to replace this than blowing the motor.
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post #33 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2018, 06:31 AM
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Throttle Actuator

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Originally Posted by Flassh View Post
The nagging problem that led to a blown engine was a fairly consistent stumble around 5200 rpm. Joe said the throttle blade was closing on acceleration, which indicated I was getting off the throttle. He needed a foot to the floor acceleration run to see if the stumble was still there. Damn - that truck took off like I had never experienced, and NO MISS!!!!

I didn't really clue in till after I limped the truck back home, and spent some time replaying our conversation.

I know I wasn't backing off the throttle during acceleration runs, so I finally came to the conclusion that my consistent stumble may have been due to a defective accelerator sensor, with a dead spot that was sending bad information to the throttle body. I have no immediate way of confirming that, but first course of action was to replace the accelerator sensor, then do some acceleration runs once the new engine is broken in and see if the stumble is gone.

If it's still there, the next likely problem area would be an expensive polished Corvette throttle body. The accelerator sensor was in the $200 range (Canadian) so much cheaper than the throttle body, and the first to be eliminated as a source of the problem.
The throttle actuator ("pedal") operates basically as a potentiometer so it might be able to be tested with a multimeter to see if indeed there is a dead spot across its range of operation. Also, have you looked at the "Engine Controls" section of the service manual? It lists a number of potential causes for misses, stumbles, surges, etc. Good luck with your repair efforts.
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post #34 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2018, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snomuncher View Post
The throttle actuator ("pedal") operates basically as a potentiometer so it might be able to be tested with a multimeter to see if indeed there is a dead spot across its range of operation. Also, have you looked at the "Engine Controls" section of the service manual? It lists a number of potential causes for misses, stumbles, surges, etc. Good luck with your repair efforts.
I'll have to find the schematic for the actuator to see which pin does what so I can put a digital multimeter on it. With 6 pins, it's a bit more challenging than a two pin set up to choose the right connections.

Also need to mount it somewhere to be able to test it - otherwise I need 3 hands.


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post #35 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2018, 08:12 PM
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Accelerator Position Sensor

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Originally Posted by Flassh View Post
I'll have to find the schematic for the actuator to see which pin does what so I can put a digital multimeter on it. With 6 pins, it's a bit more challenging than a two pin set up to choose the right connections.

Also need to mount it somewhere to be able to test it - otherwise I need 3 hands.
I don't have a 2006 service manual but the 2005 version has the electrical connector end view on page 6-397 and the wiring schematic on page 6-378.
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post #36 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-10-2018, 12:25 AM Thread Starter
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Added photo showing where the exhaust pipes cross above the rear end and added a photo of the 4" resonators that were quite effective in muffling the sharp popping sounds from the exhaust system to post 31.
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post #37 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-14-2018, 01:33 AM Thread Starter
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Decided this was a good time to repaint the firewall, so removed all the attached wiring. Overspray is a nasty thing, so completely covered the truck.

I used a high gloss acrylic enamel so I wouldn't need to clearcoat.

Reassembling the firewall wiring and starting on cutting and splicing the excess wiring tomorrow.
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post #38 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 12:41 AM Thread Starter
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Hard to clean up this rats nest without cutting a bunch of wires. Not sure I want to go there, but the number of wires going to different bundles is staggering - makes it impossible to tidy up the area easily with looming.

Attached a photo of how I hogged out the backside of the alternator bracket so all the wiring going to the passengers side could disappear from view.
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post #39 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flassh View Post
The nagging problem that led to a blown engine was a fairly consistent stumble around 5200 rpm. Joe said the throttle blade was closing on acceleration, which indicated I was getting off the throttle. He needed a foot to the floor acceleration run to see if the stumble was still there. Damn - that truck took off like I had never experienced, and NO MISS!!!!

I didn't really clue in till after I limped the truck back home, and spent some time replaying our conversation.

I know I wasn't backing off the throttle during acceleration runs, so I finally came to the conclusion that my consistent stumble may have been due to a defective accelerator sensor, with a dead spot that was sending bad information to the throttle body. I have no immediate way of confirming that, but first course of action was to replace the accelerator sensor, then do some acceleration runs once the new engine is broken in and see if the stumble is gone.

If it's still there, the next likely problem area would be an expensive polished Corvette throttle body. The accelerator sensor was in the $200 range (Canadian) so much cheaper than the throttle body, and the first to be eliminated as a source of the problem.

If it fixes the problem, it would have been a bunch cheaper to replace this than blowing the motor.
So letís assume the throttle actuator has a dead spot that causes it to mimic letting off the gas pedal. How is that any different than putting your foot to the floor and then letting up on the gas. People ( we ) do this all the time. I donít understand how letting off the gas could destroy an engine. Would someone please explain how letting off the gas can do all this damage. Thanks.

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post #40 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LITEMUP View Post
So let’s assume the throttle actuator has a dead spot that causes it to mimic letting off the gas pedal. How is that any different than putting your foot to the floor and then letting up on the gas. People ( we ) do this all the time. I don’t understand how letting off the gas could destroy an engine. Would someone please explain how letting of the gas can do all this damage. Thanks.
Original problem was that the engine had a stumble around 5200 rpm, and I didn't like that miss. After several scans, and no logical source for the miss, Joe wanted to make sure that the throttle blade closing at that rpm wasn't from me backing off the throttle unintentionally.

I floored it. The engine didn't miss. I had never floored it before. It was an exhilarating experience. Unfortunately it didn't last all that long.

The damage wasn't from letting off. The damage was either from detonation at high rpm, or from heat locking up the rings. The builder was going to check ring end gap on those two cylinders to see if they were too tight, and could have caused the ring lands to pop,

I haven't called him to find that out.


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post #41 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 10:58 AM
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The damage wasn't from letting off. The damage was either from detonation at high rpm, or from heat locking up the rings. The builder was going to check ring end gap on those two cylinders to see if they were too tight, and could have caused the ring lands to pop,

I haven't called him to find that out.[/QUOTE]

You had mentioned early on this thread that oil consumption had been a problem early on, still under warranty. Did the other undamaged cylinders show signs of oiling? ie; plug fouling or deposits? When you say stumbling, was it like ignition cutting out, because it certainly doesn't sound like fuel starvation. I mentioned earlier about ring end gap but why would that only involve two cylinders? Knock sensor is supposed to control detonation, but I read somewhere here on Fanatics that running lower octane fuel will automatically set the computer to a lower performance setting and must be reset for premium performance, I can only presume these computer adjustments involve timing. I don't mean to complicate an issue, but sometimes maybe a different mind set can expose something overlooked.
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post #42 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gr8XLr8r View Post

You had mentioned early on this thread that oil consumption had been a problem early on, still under warranty. Did the other undamaged cylinders show signs of oiling? ie; plug fouling or deposits? When you say stumbling, was it like ignition cutting out, because it certainly doesn't sound like fuel starvation. I mentioned earlier about ring end gap but why would that only involve two cylinders? Knock sensor is supposed to control detonation, but I read somewhere here on Fanatics that running lower octane fuel will automatically set the computer to a lower performance setting and must be reset for premium performance, I can only presume these computer adjustments involve timing. I don't mean to complicate an issue, but sometimes maybe a different mind set can expose something overlooked.
Based on the one hard acceleration, fuel delivery is not a problem. It always seemed to burn through the oil without any major fouling issues. The only indication of any oil problems was a bit of smoke on deceleration, as pointed out by whoever was behind me in a convoy headed to a show. Plugs were a bit dark whenever I changed them, but they always seemed to run fine.

I started fueling with Chevron 94 octane in the fall of 2014, before the supercharger install in early 2015, and programming was set to run 94 octane. I have never needed to fuel up with anything less than 94 octane.

I will address all possible programming issues with Joe when he reprograms for the updates, including the LS9 cam.

I will ask him to set the rev limiter at 6000 to make sure I can't over rev. I would rarely reach 6000, so that doesn't seem like a huge sacrifice in order to safeguard the engine.
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post #43 of 67 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 08:32 PM
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post #44 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-12-2019, 04:36 AM
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I am curious as to what your engine builder thinks may have caused all that damage.
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post #45 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 03:47 PM Thread Starter
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I have the engine back from the rebuilder, and have started to attach components that need to go on before the engine and transmission are re-installed.

Everything points to a good rebuild, so hoping reassembly goes well. I have a GM mechanic coming in to install the flywheel and clutch, and deal with aligning the components as the transmission is attached.

Motor mounts will be reassembled with new rubber inserts.

Below is a list of components used in the rebuild, including part numbers.

GM Performance 12638427 LS9 supercharged ZR-1 camshaft
Wiseco K398X05 Forged pistons and rings with pin upgrade
K1 012AE25610 forged 4340 steel billet H-beam rods with bronze wrist pin bushings
Johnson 2110 LS lifters
Melling 10295 high pressure oil pump
ARP 234-4317 LS head stud kit
Comp Cams 26915CS beehive valve spring kit
Comp Cams 13702 trunnion upgrade kit
Comp Cams 7637-16 chromoly pushrods
Manley 11360-8 stainless steel intake valves
Manley 11673-8 stainless steel exhaust valves
Cloyes C-3220 timing chain
Cloyes 9-5417 timing damper
Clevite CB663HN H series rod bearings
Clevite MS2294H H series main bearings
Dura-bond CH23 cam bearings
Cometic C5505-051 head gaskets

Melling 590259 cylinder sleeves were installed in the two damaged cylinders.

Block was decked. Boring and honing were done using a torque plate.

Crank was re-balanced. Flywheel and clutch assembly were balanced as a unit.

Also have the following being installed as part of the rebuild process

GM 24255748 LS7/LSX clutch kit
GM 12571611 LS7 Flywheel
GM 24237634 LS7 slave cylinder/actuator
GM 12557583 SSR pilot bearing
Hinson TPSBLC6 Remote Clutch Bleeder
ARP 134-1202 exhaust manifold bolts
GM 19244831 motor mount rubber inserts
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post #46 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 04:01 PM
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That is a list of all good quality parts there, it should run great after it gets put in. I have abused my share of many of those brands and they have always held up well.
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post #47 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 08:01 PM
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that is a good looking project Ray
Glad your able to get it together.


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post #48 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 05:28 PM
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Flassh, back when I worked at the speedshop, besides Brontosaurus prods and T-rex arm extensions we sold a lot of Melling oil pumps for Chevys.
They had a High Pressure pump and a High Volume pump. If that's still a option I'd talk to some people about which would be the better choice for your motor.

Often wrong...... but never in doubt.
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post #49 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
Flassh, back when I worked at the speedshop, besides Brontosaurus prods and T-rex arm extensions we sold a lot of Melling oil pumps for Chevys.
They had a High Pressure pump and a High Volume pump. If that's still a option I'd talk to some people about which would be the better choice for your motor.
They still have two pump designs. Both Joe at LC32 and the builder recommended the high pressure pump, so went with that.


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post #50 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 05:52 PM
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You're good to go then, they should know.

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post #51 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 10:02 AM
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Sorry, I didnt see this thread earlier or I would have taken the time to answer questions.

The stock pistons broke due to the rings butting. When the rings butt on the stock LS engines it is common to break the top of the cast piston above the ring land. This is commonly caused by too tight of ring gaps and or excessive heat due to a lean condition. The airfuel ratio was at 11.6-11.8 when under boost so it was not lean and there were no signs of detonation in any of his scans or when pulling the plugs to read them. We run it a little rich at 11.6-11.8 rather then 12.5 to make sure the tops of the stock cast pistons stay cool so the rings dont butt. The stock knock sensors will pick up any signs of detonation prior to any audible knock as they pick up harmonics in the coolant passages around the sleeves.

The speckling of aluminum on the top of the piston and the combustion chamber of those cylinders is due to the pieces of piston that broke off. Ray has checked his plugs and done scans on his SSR a lot and I am sure it was not due to a lean condition. This engine has had a hard time with oil consumption since new. We rebuilt a similar oil consumption motor from an SSR recently with only 30,000 miles and most of the rings were stuck in the ring lands. The pistons just fell out during disassembly. Thanks for your time

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post #52 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 02:42 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply, Joe. The speculation on this thread about what might have caused the damage was above my pay grade to comment on, so glad Joe was able to explain what happened.

Engine, clutch and transmission are now one unit. I have a GM tech coming over tomorrow night to get the drivetrain back where it belongs.
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post #53 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 06:10 PM
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looks like the weather is shaping up for a good test ride this week


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2006 SSR Auto SMOKIN'ASPHALT/RICOCHET SILVER
Build Date: 03/02/2006

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post #54 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
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My SSR:
Silver on Black TVS2300 supercharged FPR 6 speed 4:10 #23387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebike View Post
looks like the weather is shaping up for a good test ride this week
I've got a lot of reassembling to do, with pretty much everything under the hood getting re-polished before going in. I'm probably a month away from firing it up.

Hope all the electronics come to life as planned. I did a lot of cutting, re-routing, soldering and shrinkwrapping of the underhood wiring, but always one wire at a time so there would be no chance of crossing wires.
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post #55 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-20-2019, 10:32 AM
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My SSR:
Maybellene 2006 SSR Auto #23699 SMOKIN'ASPHALT/RICOCHET SILVER Build Date: 03/02/2006
tidying up wiring is always a core but so satisfying when things work correctly later.


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Mike - mikebike in Surrey BC Canada Licence plate MY SSR
2006 SSR Auto SMOKIN'ASPHALT/RICOCHET SILVER
Build Date: 03/02/2006

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post #56 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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My SSR:
Silver on Black TVS2300 supercharged FPR 6 speed 4:10 #23387
Garage
It's been a busy couple of weeks putting this puzzle back together.

Had a GM master tech come over to install the LS7 flywheel, clutch and actuator, and reattach the transmission. Installed the new motor mounts and some of the sensors, and had a former GM mechanic and his son come over to get the engine and transmission back into the hole.

Attached some photos from the assembly process.

First shows the new trunions, springs and head studs.

Second is the set of stainless ARP bolts I decided to go with after hearing about broken exhaust bolts.

Third is with the fresh ceramic coated manifold installed

Fourth shows valve covers, coil mounts and exhaust shields

Last shows the blower installed, polished AC lines, water pump and coils.
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Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all




00567 Slingshot May 04 - March 06
Sig #23 May 07 - Sept 09
24092 Pac Blue Nov 07 - Oct 08
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post #57 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 12:58 AM Thread Starter
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My SSR:
Silver on Black TVS2300 supercharged FPR 6 speed 4:10 #23387
Garage
1 - Pulleys and belts installed

2 - Fuel pressure sender installed on rear fuel crossover.

3 - Fuel pressure gauge installed

4 - Closer to completion

The remote bleeder sure made it easy to get the clutch system filled with fluid and purged of air.

First firing up the engine is a very nervous moment. It fired up, ran smoothly, oil pressure came up quickly, no engine light.

Ran it a few minutes with the coolant cap off, topped the system off, then checked for coolant leaks - all good.

Closed the cap, ran it till it reached operating temperature. Damn - slight coolant dribble. Found one heater hose that might not have been clamped tightly enough.

Ran it to operating temperature again, and all looks good. Truck is still on jackstands, so used the opportunity to test the clutch. Seems to operate smoothly.

Hooked up the laptop to check all functions, and found a problem with the mass airflow sensor not showing on the laptop. Traced the wiring from the maf sensor to one of the ECM harnesses. Wiring is fine.

No DTCs so far, so fair to assume MAF signal is getting to the ECM. Disconnected the MAF harness, restarted the engine. After about a minute, engine light came on, and had a DTC on the laptop. Seems to confirm there is a good MAF signal to the ECM.

So...........it looks like we're down to either a laptop/software issue, or loss of signal from the ECM to the OBD port. Downloaded the latest HP Tuner software, tried again. Problem persists.

I have the GM tech who installed the clutch coming tomorrow with his Tech II. I'm hoping he sees is a MAF signal at the OBD port. If he doesn't, looks like some tearing down needs to happen to trace the problem.

If the signal is there, problem is either software, laptop or proprietary HP Tuner cable. Unfortunately, that would make it difficult to modify the programming to take advantage of the improved components.

If anyone can offer suggestions where else to look for the MAF problem, I'd appreciate any help.
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post #58 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 09:39 AM
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LS2 Rebuild

After about a minute, engine light came on, and had a DTC on the laptop. Seems to confirm there is a good MAF signal to the ECM.

Ray:

What DTC appeared on your laptop? That would be useful to know for further diagnosis.
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post #59 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
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My SSR:
Silver on Black TVS2300 supercharged FPR 6 speed 4:10 #23387
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by snomuncher View Post
After about a minute, engine light came on, and had a DTC on the laptop. Seems to confirm there is a good MAF signal to the ECM.

Ray:

What DTC appeared on your laptop? That would be useful to know for further diagnosis.
DTC was P0102 - can't remember exact wording, but a low reading from the MAF. I cleared the code, reconnected the MAF sensor, and no more codes. That eliminated the MAF sensor and wiring between the MAF and ECM as a source of the problem.

Just got done going through the system with the GM tech. Nice of him to bring his equipment over on a Sunday. Everything on the diagnostics port is good, Tech 2 was getting MAF and speedo info.

Sending a scan to Joe to see whether he can figure it out. Down to the cable, program or laptop as a source of the problem. Truck is fine.

Time to put inner fender liners and the front valance back on. Then reinstall the frame stiffener and wheels and get it back on the ground.
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post #60 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 08:20 AM
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Just got done going through the system with the GM tech. Nice of him to bring his equipment over on a Sunday. Everything on the diagnostics port is good, Tech 2 was getting MAF and speedo info.

With no codes appearing on the Tech 2 your assessment concerning checking the peripherals- laptop, cable or software- seems logical. My initial thought was related to airflow or vacuum, e.g. loose clamp or line/hose connection.
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