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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Autoprof suggested I should start a thread detailing my problems

The Relays I believe are problematic for me are the 8567's
When Kate first failed to start at Penticton meet, Bob (BlastfromPast) swapped Relay #44 & #49 (I think - both 8567 anyway)She started right up

I must say, when she did not start she had a sound very difficult to describe - sort of wheezing, like getting some gas but not enough - she was "almost running" but not quite.
Next couple times she started, but on the way home late Saturday, I pulled over for a catnap - she wouldn't start when ready to resume trip home

In the middle of nowhere, I swapped 2 relays. As it turned out I was lucky she started, because I swapped in a #3412 into the Fuel Pump Related #44 - 8567 - no idea why that worked!
Anyway, got home very late - next day, would not start.
I swapped the Relays back to original position and she started
Next time, she did not start - I swapped 2 #8567 Relays - and she started
Day later she would not start (at KellyO's suggestion) I gave the #44 Relay a slight palm slap (down) and she started.

So, as much as I want to, I don't know if I can trust the "Little Vixen"

My very helpful brother came over, he dismantled the fuse box, but could not see any problems
The inside of the fuse box was pristine, but I took sandpaper to the posts of all #8567's and the one small fuse relating to the fuel pump.
I saw a youtube about how to test relays - will attach if I can find it.
Dana connected wires as per the youtube so we could see if the Relays were performing properly - and they seem to be
He checked the grounds that can be located without tearing seats out etc.

Anyway, seems like I am just waiting to see if another issue comes up.
I am going to buy #8567 & #3412 Relays, just to have on hand

I don't believe Kate will strand me, but for now, I am leaving the fuse box cover off and keeping the trips short

This youtube is only a couple minutes long - but worked for us.

 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Fuse box wires are all fine
Besides, it seems the broken wires in the fuse box lead to stalling at random times while driving
Kate only has a "starting" issue - and she runs great - no sign of issues while on the road

I must say, when I got home from Penticton, I did not feel she was running great.
I don't know if that was because I was way over-tired and over-thinking, waiting for a problem, or maybe because the Relays were not in the correct position (a 3412 where an 8567 should have been)
I expect the latter was the problem

We have gone on 3 short jaunts - started 5 times w/o issue

BTW, I have spoken with our famous Dictator and have taken his advice
 

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Good Luck! Keep us updated. If swapping Relays worked that many times, I would think Bad/sticking Relay. Like you said-- buy new, correct Part number replacement.

Nick
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Good Luck! Keep us updated. If swapping Relays worked that many times, I would think Bad/sticking Relay. Like you said-- buy new, correct Part number replacement.

Nick
Yeah, they aren't expensive - I should consider swapping them all out

I spoke with my brother this morning about events:
#1 - We realize it is a totally different vehicle in the youtube, likely no ECM, but the youtube shows all 4 points light up with the power probe, the positive bright, other 3 not so bright.
Checking mine, (#44 -fuel pump #8567) - the Positive lit (with the ignition On) others were dead - when the engine was started, Positive and two others lit, other 1 dead.

I don't grasp the relationship between the ECM and the fuse box relays - we are concerned that may alter the results.
We are going to look further into Autoprofs diagrams from a previous thread

We have ruled out grounds, fuse box as a whole, ignition switch - it all leads back to the relays IMO
Swapping has been a temporary fix - unfortunately, right now waiting for it to fail again
If it does, I can check the relays in the "dormant" situation
 

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#1 - We realize it is a totally different vehicle in the youtube, likely no ECM, but the youtube shows all 4 points light up with the power probe, the positive bright, other 3 not so bright.
Checking mine, (#44 -fuel pump #8567) - the Positive lit (with the ignition On) others were dead - when the engine was started, Positive was lit and one other post lit, other 2 dead.

I don't grasp the relationship between the ECM and the fuse box relays - we are concerned that may alter the results.
We are going to look further into Autoprofs diagrams from a previous thread
Cash
I do believe the car tested was computer controlled - in fact was most likely a fuel pump relay. ECM grounds the relay for about three seconds when ign. is first turned on to prime fuel lines, this is way there was 12 volts to the last test point for about three seconds. Then if the computer does not see a signal from the crank sensor it will shut off the fuel pump by removing the ground and then the 12 volt lead will drop to zero.

Are using a power probe or just a test light. If you re-watch notice the screen on the power probe carefully. You will note the color of lead lights near probe go from green to red and the display moves form 0 to almost 12 volts.

You said that you had a light on one ends and other 3 were dead with engine off -- this may be normal sometimes 3.
You then stated that light only 2 leads with engine running -- this is not normal and engine should not be running.
I question whether you wrapped the little wires tight enough, if this is the method you used.

A relay is an electromagnetic switch -- it uses magnetism (created by electricity) to turn on and off a switch. A four terminal relay will use two terminals to create the magnetism.Power on one terminal and ground the other (using done by the computer) magnetism will be created. The magnetism will then bu used to flip (this is the click you hear) the switch inside the relay. And will allow current to pass though it, indicated by power or 12 volts on both terminals.

As i try to explain to my students using a light switch " Two things have to happen to turn on the lights
1. You have to flip the switch (magnetic field)
2. The light switch has to work - just because you turn it on and off doesn't mean its allowing current flow - just because you hear a relay click it DOESN'T mean its any good either."

So you should have three terminals with voltage, only one grounded - showing no voltage.


I have a couple of suggestions
1. Clear the ecm codes - have codes read then after problem occurs reread codes WITHOUT swapping relays - I know not may not be possible if you do not own your own scanner
2. Check voltages at all fuses using voltmeter with black lead connected to a good ground. Test the fuses with problem acting up.
While this might not determine which part is at fault it will provide information for further testing. Let us know any that have 0 volts or less than 10 volts that are not for a light circuit or similar (see my charts )


Also I recommend that you NEVER EVER, DON'T or DON'T EVEN THINK about replacing a relay with one that is not the same.
A collapsing magnetic field can induce voltage spikes in the opposite direction - this could cause a voltage spike to leak back into the computer. TO prevent this from causing a problem many relays that are computer controlled have a reverse bias diode connected to protect the computer - the wrong relay may not provide this protection. It may not cause a failure to the computer the first couple of times the computer tries to turn this on and off --over time it could let some smoke out of your computer. And if you can't get all the smoke back into the computer you will have to buy a new one that has the proper amount of smoke in it!
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Thanks for all the effort Autoprof

Yesterday morning
- I wish I had tried to start her before we began, but I didn't, so realistically, I don't know if yesterday's efforts were helpful or not
- I have an OB Scanner - first thing we did - it was clear
- I used a test light - not sure if Dana has a power probe or not, but I don't
- We probably should have used a lighter gauge copper wire - we may re-wrap those.

I have forwarded your post to my brother for him to peruse
When I had the problem initially, that was my first foray into that fuse box - and Bob swapped the relays while I was in the cab.
I thought he said he had swapped 44/49 - so in the middle of the night, tired, pitch black, flashlight in my mouth, I swapped 44/49 back, or so I thought.
I drove for about an hour with relays in the wrong position - switched them back the next morning - hopefully no damage done.

Dana called earlier and asked me to send the 2 attachments in Post 5 for him to look at.
When Dana has a chance to go through your post I will post with what we are doing.
As of now, she is starting on cue, but I have only done 4 around the block trips with her since the initial problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Sorry, I was at the dumb end of our duo - in the cab starting her.
When running, Dana tells me 3 were lit
1 driver side - 2 passenger side

I guess that means the wiring job we did worked
 

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Sorry, I was at the dumb end of our duo - in the cab starting her.
When running, Dana tells me 3 were lit
1 driver side - 2 passenger side

I guess that means the wiring job we did worked
I don't know -
IF the other guy is doing most of the work
Doesn't that make you the smart one! :glol

It also means the relay was working!

Please share the attached diagrams with your brother also. These illustrate how I came up with the fuses to test for both the ignition switch (pics 1 and 2)and a possible fuse box malfunction (pic 3 from an old Ed in FLA post).

Best of luck
 

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I have been in my office doing administrative paperwork since almost 7.
Getting bored with it! So some more information that may or may not help

Regarding my earlier post about using a different relay -- another reason not to use a different one that fits. The windings in the relay that create the magnetic field may have a different resistance. This may cause the computer (or whatever is controlling the relay) to work at an amperage higher that it is designed to work with. This could also lead to a failure.

Sorry, I was at the dumb end of our duo - in the cab starting her.
When running, Dana tells me 3 were lit
1 driver side - 2 passenger side

I guess that means the wiring job we did worked
Picture #1 - How NOT to make a cheap relay tester
DO NOT do this trying to get a good connection - even one strand wrapped like this can damage the female terminal and create a loose electrical connection that can cause an intermittent condition that would be a bear to find.

The following is an attempt for those who might not understand testing a relay.

Most relays follow ISO standard circuit numbering that can be found imprinted on the bottom of the relay
See picture 2

Terminals 85 and 86 are connected to the coil windings one should have 12 volts on one terminal and the other should have less than 1v when activated. Preferably less than .5V and absolute 0 volts is either a bad connection or a bad relay. You will note I did not mentioned which one would have which reading. The terminals are diagonal from each other so if relay is revered in the socket the results would be reversed. If you are working on something has has non standard numbering see next paragraph.

Terminals 87 and 70 are for the switch of the relay and there should be close to 12 volts on both sides when activated. Again terminals diagonal on this relay. Realistically you could confirm the operation of the relay by just checking these - IF these are both good relay and control circuit are working. If 12 volts on only one - check other two terminals.
Most relays also have the wiring diagram printed on them. See picture 3. This is also how you could determine which terminal does what on a relay with non standard numbering - or you forgot which one does what.

I hope it helps somebody if not you -- again bored and just wanting to do what I enjoy - helping others learn how to repair/diagnosis their car.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I don't know -
IF the other guy is doing most of the work
Doesn't that make you the smart one! :glol

It also means the relay was working!

Please share the attached diagrams with your brother also. These illustrate how I came up with the fuses to test for both the ignition switch (pics 1 and 2)and a possible fuse box malfunction (pic 3 from an old Ed in FLA post).

Best of luck
"Ignorance is bliss" sort of thing - HaHa!
I sent Dana a link to this thread to review your posts - Thanks Again! :thumbs

I took Kate out today, total of 5 starts, and she was right on cue
Dana is going to lend me a digital reader so that, if I wind up in failure mode, I can read output on related fuses and relays
"if" she fails, I hope it is at morning startup in my garage - not a 100-degree day at a Smokin Asphalt parking lot!
 

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Cash, I've had similar experience on my Silverado. Go out to start and all it does is crank - and it was always cold starts (usually when I was leaving for work). Same solution - swap the fuel pump relay with identical # and usually fixed the issue. On that truck, the horn relay is the same model and I had a few incidents where that would stick "on". Quite annoying! Anyway, I just simply got fed up one day and bought all new relays and swapped them out. It happened again a few years later and I didn't even bother with a swap -- just replaced it. Now I always keep 1 of each relay in the glove box, but the issue hasn't cropped up again in quite some time.


I know... I just jinxed myself. :D
 
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