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starter

In the car business, if somebody says the starter spin but won't start, we need to look at the complaint. In the early days, if a starter spins, it could be the solenoid is not sending the starter into engagement. The starters today are much different. Does the engine turn, or is the starter spinning without cranking the engine? If the ladder is the fact, the starter could be at fault. Starters should last the lifetime of the engine with fuel injected cars. Right autoprof, or one would like to agree.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Starter spin-no fire

I can hear the starter doing it's thing, just like a tractor or lawn mower, but nothing ever makes the engine turn over. ( Well it did fire and start once-but very rough- didn't want to do that again) Mostly, if you turn the key to engage the starter, it just s spins, I only do that a few seconds-less than ten I would say. I can tell nothing is happening.
I may have limited vocabulary on this, but in my terms, that's what's going on.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Did you try to observe throttle plates as ignition was turned on? and as throttle pedal was pushed down
If it moved the throttle motor and wiring is probably ok.

If it did not move you could use your test light to check the wiring at the connector you have pictured.

You WILL need to find small electrical terminals or adapters that will fit into the female connector without causing damage. Trying to force either end of the test light into the connector WILL damage the female terminal NOW or create an intermittent problem in the future that will be a pain to find.
SO DO IT RIGHT OR DON"T DO IT.
The attached picture shows something similar that you would want to do.

After you have found the proper terminals that will fit into the connector without causing any damage. Place one in the terminal with the yellow wire and the other end of the test light in the terminal with the brown wire (polarity won't matter). Then while watching the test light have someone turn the key to on. You should see a brief flash from the test light
" excerpt from service manual
12 Turn OFF the ignition.
Connect a test lamp between the 2 TAC motor circuits at the TAC motor harness connector.
Turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF, and observe the test lamp.

Did the test lamp illuminate briefly when the ignition was turned ON?

If it does not flash - problem in wiring, connector at throttle control module, throttle control mode problem, or something else is making the throttle control module not want to open the throttle.
If light does flash most likely a bad throttle control motor - replace throttle body assembly (this is why i asked if you had throttle body replaced with a ported version or had yours ported also because of steps 5 and 6 in diagnostic steps)

I have also attached two Jpegs showing the diagnostic steps -- note they want you to use a scan tool to look a throttle position sensor voltages first. Then physically and visually check throttle. Then test wiring AND THEN use the test light to check circuit - you will be skipping steps.
The TSB was issued to save time from checking all of this first.
"Did you try to observe throttle plates as ignition was turned on? and as throttle pedal was pushed down
If it moved the throttle motor and wiring is probably ok"

Are the throttle plates you mentioned visible in the first image. EDITED to add- (and I really hate to ask this, but is the throttle pedal the accelerator? If so no action there either. Except I can hear something like a dry pump being activated.) If so, they never move. I did clear the codes again and I still get ,0120, 0220, and 1516.

Out of curiosity, the air diverter(?) that is between the air filter and throttle body is not symmetric, at least in mine. Is that correct. See image 2.
 

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In the car business, if somebody says the starter spin but won't start, we need to look at the complaint. In the early days, if a starter spins, it could be the solenoid is not sending the starter into engagement. The starters today are much different. Does the engine turn, or is the starter spinning without cranking the engine? If the ladder is the fact, the starter could be at fault. Starters should last the lifetime of the engine with fuel injected cars. Right autoprof, or one would like to agree.
Medina,
you are correct coming from another who knows the difference between starter spinning and engine spinning. If starter spins engine doesn't it is usually a slipping starter drive gear or broken/worn teeth on ring gear or flex plate.(most incorrectly call it flywheel).
Many years of various descriptions -- starter spins engine won't catch, etc. And because he says it may fire and codes match the reduced engine power light I assumed we were dealing with an engine cranks won't start complaint.
 

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"Did you try to observe throttle plates as ignition was turned on? and as throttle pedal was pushed down
If it moved the throttle motor and wiring is probably ok"

Are the throttle plates you mentioned visible in the first image. EDITED to add- (and I really hate to ask this, but is the throttle pedal the accelerator? If so no action there either. Except I can hear something like a dry pump being activated.) If so, they never move. I did clear the codes again and I still get ,0120, 0220, and 1516.

Out of curiosity, the air diverter(?) that is between the air filter and throttle body is not symmetric, at least in mine. Is that correct. See image 2.
Wolfpacker
The throttle is the big round gold part in pic on. It opens and closes to control the amount of air into engine - thus changing the speed of engine.
Because it doesn't move, I'm on the right track.
Hard for me to provide a lot of education on this forum. I would suggest you carefully inspect wiring visually and then try to find some assistance from somebody with a little more knowledge. I want to help but I don't want you to create more problems or god forbid get hurt.
 

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Just saw your edit, I was typing previous response.
Yes, throttle pedal is same as accelerator pedal.
You mentioned a noise. Is this noise only in response to someone pushing the accelerator?
If so, can you feel a vibration on the throttle motor (place your hand on plastic part near where plug connects shown in previous picture)have assistant slowly push and release accelerator. Do you "feel" the noise in response to the pedal movement?

If BOTH of these responses are Yes! I would bet a case of my favorite beverage you have a bad throttle body.

Please post results to these questions.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Just saw your edit, I was typing previous response.
Yes, throttle pedal is same as accelerator pedal.
You mentioned a noise. Is this noise only in response to someone pushing the accelerator?
If so, can you feel a vibration on the throttle motor (place your hand on plastic part near where plug connects shown in previous picture)have assistant slowly push and release accelerator. Do you "feel" the noise in response to the pedal movement?

If BOTH of these responses are Yes! I would bet a case of my favorite beverage you have a bad throttle body.

Please post results to these questions.
First-I guess I was wrong about the starter spinning. While under the hood with my had on the throttle body, I asked that the engine be started. Same as before, but it was actually trying to crank, Inside the cab, I thought it was a starter noise.

Secondly- the"pump" noise happens when the key is turned to the "on" position. After waiting a few seconds, it does not repeat when the throttle pedal is slowly depressed and released.

I have not used a tester to check the wiring harness. I will do that tomorrow.

Sorry for the confusion about the spinning starter- it was very smooth and didn't feel like the engine, but evidently it was trying to crank, just not firing.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I agree with River Rat -- recheck all connections on anything that you moved or loosened. (i thought that you had already done this) Also LOW system voltage can set these codes

Did you have the throttle body removed and ported when you had the tune? --

Be sure that the fuse box terminals are not loose (don't over tighten) and that you check all fuses using test light (especially #21) for throttle actuator module. You can do this quickly with your test light
see the following You tube for more information https://youtu.be/gKgmIcmp7eo

Because only the three codes from the TSB reappeared I have attached a cleaner copy of the TSB that is easier to read. Note the TSB says that the wires break approximately 4 inches from the throttle body connection. You will have to carefully remove the plastic conduit to be able to closely inspect the wires - possibly just beyond the one breakout point (the place where other wires come out of the same harness). The yellow and brown wires are wires that come from the Throttle actuator control module and are used to make the throttle body motor open and close the throttle. You could confirm the operation of the throttle motor by removing the air inlet duct. Then watch the throttle plates while someone else turns on the key (just turn on do not attempt to start) you should see the throttle open slightly. Then have the person inside the car press accelerator pedal down and you should see the throttle plates open. If the throttle does in fact NOT move, You could confirm this is the cause of the no start by manually opening throttle plates (reach inside and hold open just a very small amount and do not put fingers underneath - push the plates open - do not pull them open) then have the person inside the car attempt to start, if engine starts this is where your problem lies. (NOTE this will set another codes in the computer for the mass air flow sensor. Unfortunately a number of other things beside broken wires could cause the throttle motor to not work.

If you were about 4-5 hours closer I would drive out and help. (2-3 hours one way would be all I could do)

I hope this helps - again recheck other connectors first --
"Be sure that the fuse box terminals are not loose (don't over tighten) and that you check all fuses using test light (especially #21) for throttle actuator module. You can do this quickly with your test light"

#21 is fog lamps. I bet you meant 20 the TAC. It and 23 and 24 all do the same and are not like any of the others. All others make the test light very bright.
20,23 and 24 just do make the test light visible.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
It's working.

I pressed the throttle plate and asked my assistant (Mrs. Wolfpacker) to turn the ignition switch to the on position and when she did the plate jumped a bit. I asked her to put the key in the off position, I put my finger on the plate, she put the key in the on position and the plate jumped a little again. So I thought WTH, crank it dear. It started up and ran smoothly. She shut it down, restarted revved the engine.
All's well.

And she said well now you know what to do if it happens again.:surprise::wink2::grin2:

I have no idea,

But thanks to all who offered advice and suggestions.
I'd also appreciate any followup ideas or warnings.
 

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Wolfpacker
The throttle is the big round gold part in pic on. It opens and closes to control the amount of air into engine - thus changing the speed of engine.
Because it doesn't move, I'm on the right track.
ALSO post #26 by autoprof---

HMMM---if you didn't do anything else, just moving the throttle plate, maybe there's a bad spot on the "throttle control motor" or its sticking and by moving it freed it up??? Maybe a good spray down with Throttle Body Cleaner inside???
Glad its going---hope it doesn't reappear!!

Nick
 

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ALSO post #26 by autoprof---

HMMM---if you didn't do anything else, just moving the throttle plate, maybe there's a bad spot on the "throttle control motor" or its sticking and by moving it freed it up??? Maybe a good spray down with Throttle Body Cleaner inside???
Glad its going---hope it doesn't reappear!!

Nick
Very possible, one other thought
You mentioned that the test light was barely visible on fuses 20,23 and 24 but was nice and bright on all other fuses. I am assuming you did not move the alligator clip that was attached to a ground as you tested all of the fuses.

Maybe retest fuses 20,23 and 24 with test light now that that everything is functioning correctly -- is the test light now bright at all test locations (both sides of each fuse) like it was on the other fuses?
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Currently:

All warning lights are off, and the codes are clear, all fuses check nice and bright, truck starts and runs perfectly.

When I was checking the fuses, circuits before and got the really weak test light with 20, 23 and 24, I went to other fuses and back to those, they were still weak, so the ground remained good.

I did hear a little high pitch sound when I touched those fuses. The odd thing was as I touched a different ones of those three the pitch went up. Those are TAC and fuel injector fuses.
 

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I not sure about the noise -- Personally I can't hear high pitches. I am also a little confused about how you described it changed.


i do however have some thoughts concerns about the weak test light that is now bright.


1. The dim test light is an indication of reduced current available to operate the light.
2. Current flow goes down when voltage goes down or resistance goes up.
3. Because the other fuse circuits can supply enough current to make the test light bright then the problem also has to be something that would only effect the fuses in question.
4. Because the other fuse circuits share the same voltage source, the problem cannot be a reduction in voltage - the circuit in question must have unwanted/increased resistance. (possible loose connection)
5. This leaves anything in the highlighted section of the wiring diagram I enclosed as suspect. Also a possibility it is low current side of relay #42 -- causing the relay to cycle rapidly. Not common as the low current side will typically either turn the relay on or it cant turn the relay on. Does not typically cause a flicker.
6. If it were my car I would replace relay #42 with a new one and see what happens. I would also make sure that the bolts that holds the fuse box together are snug (plastic connectors on other side DO NOT over tighten). If problem reoccurs - start tapping/wiggle fuse box and relay trying to get it to run.

I would not want to swap relay #42 with only other relay in underhood fuse box that is the same because it is starter solenoid relay and if relay acts up again car still wont start -- I don't believe any others (including the rear fuse box) are the same part#

One of the conditions I noted that could set the codes was low system voltage -- the unwanted resistance would not allow throttle module to operate correctly (it would create an unwanted voltage drop to the module)

Just my thoughts -- really hard to diagnosis long distance without touching, feeling or testing myself

Again congrats for getting it running // :banana

Got to make you wonder - did the previous owner have some fuse box/electrical problems - and that is why you found an extra relay and fuses? :puzzled:
 

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Currently:

All warning lights are off, and the codes are clear, all fuses check nice and bright, truck starts and runs perfectly.

When I was checking the fuses, circuits before and got the really weak test light with 20, 23 and 24, I went to other fuses and back to those, they were still weak, so the ground remained good.

I did hear a little high pitch sound when I touched those fuses. The odd thing was as I touched a different ones of those three the pitch went up. Those are TAC and fuel injector fuses.
If I followed this thread correctly, the issue was the stuck throttle blade. Either electricity or mechanically stuck throw codes but not always the same ones.
Your slight (finger) movement of the blade (most likely) gave the electric motor a new gear tooth in that specific spot.
Considering how cost effective a whole assembly is, I would consider replacing it.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CMRANMY/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Sad news.

Back to the same problem.

The throttle body was dirty. I took it off, cleaned it, put it back on and told my wife I was going for a drive and enjoy my accomplishments. Very same problem.

Regarding the fuses that dimly light the test light. Two new things.

One if I hold the test light on it it will brighten in a couple of seconds.
Two, with the wiring harness off of the throttle body the fuse are bright, put the harness back on and the light will be dim. Keep contact with the test light and it brightens up.

I also have these codes
the usual P0120, P0220, and P1516 and now P2135 and U0107


Also, I did adapt the test light to check the TB harness. I used speaker wire twisted and folded back on itself. The fuses activated the light with the adaptation, I could not get the TB harness to make the light show. Could be a couple of reasons, but I tried it many times and never got a flicker.
 

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The U code indicates the TAC Module is not communicating on the serial data line.

As a quick test swap relay 42 with starter relay. And see if ttest light nice and bright and throttle plate moves when key on. It may not crank if relay 42 is bad and is now trying to operate starter. But if throttle works and it doesn't crank, you know you have a bad relay.

Edit, sorry to hear, hopefully it happened at home in the garage and not on the road
 
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