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Discussion Starter #1
I know that the torque guage is really just an interpolation of other data, but I noticed that mine will peak out at 350. It seems to me, although I am not certain, that it used to peg at 400, prior to my unrequested "surprise" computer reflash done at the dealer. It also seems to me that I coiuld scratch 2nd gear rubber fairly easily prior to the service, and now its an effort. So two questions, 1 Where do other owners 05,06 guages peak and 2. how can I find out what the intentions are of this recent factory reflash? If its more torque reduction, Im really going to be P---ed.
 

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The only way to figure out what is going on is to talk with a custom programer. The new flash for your SSR might have been a change in the torque management. My guage pegs as soon as you press the gas pedal hard at all, but I do have the supercharger and the 6 speed.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
thanks 2005 So.........anyone else? Have you noticed where your guage goes under load. The info would be helpful.....Thanks
 

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I've got the 05 w/auto. When new it would peg the meter at 400. After the dealer reflashed the PCM it would only "pull" 350/375. The dealer has no way to return the PCM back the way it was. Still waiting for the aftermarket to release their software.
 

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So whats the story. Did they reduce the power/torque for some reason. If so they are setting themselves up for a lawsuit for false advertising, the product is not performing as presented. Has anyone done a dyno after the "upgrade"?
 

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They did not reduce peak torque, they changed the max delevered torque at lower rpm in the lower gears. This was done to "protect" the trans/rearend. Dyno run on mine after it was reflashed still showed 331 rwhp.
 

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It wont be an issue once you have gotten into the upper gear and speed. Do you notice if you floor it while going about 70 does it peg then. I would assume that they added more torque management to save the transmissions and rear axles. The LS2 has alot of torque even at low rpm's. The transmission and rear axle in the automatic SSR's would be the first to break.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I thought that whp was around 350. Anyways,i will go check it out at different speeds and gears. I do know that I could scratch 2nd gear rubber easier before the reflash. Not that I do that alot, but its kind of a yardstick in how things are running.
What is the status on the aftermarket reprograms. I did a search ank couldn't find much.
 

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I didnt notice that your SSR is the 6 Speed until I read your other thread. You can have the torque management totally removed. I dont understand why they would do the reflash and limit the performance unless they are doing a canned program for all SSR's. The 6 speed SSR can have torque management added as it is within the capabilities of the computer. You could purchase the HP Tuners program after Sema (they are due to release the LS2 at that time) and take all the torque management out. I have been waiting on the final release myself.
 

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Now don't anyone whose 6-speed 05 / 06 SSR produced "only" 320 rwhp, or whose 03 /04 automatic produced "only" 225 hp, start worrying that they got a "bad one".

As Chapter 18 of my book will clearly show, there's more to carelessly published and compared dyno charts than meets the eye. :)

Jim G
 

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This dyno sheet was published to show the torque curve of my SSR before the supercharger. It can also be used as a measuring stick, just remember to accept a 10-15% difference either way between dynos.
 

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Torkometer Reading

6.0scSSR-

My "Torkometer" too seems to peak about 350 around town. I haven't looked at it at freeway speeds while getting on it, but Im thinking I don't recall ever seeing it pegged at 400.

By the way my '05 is totally stock with a stick and had a build date of 12/04. My PCM has not been reflashed.

I do plan a baseline dyno run when I get about 5K miles on it..Should be about January sometime before I do some exhaust, intake and tuning mods. I think the aftermarket is just now finding out what things can make these LS2's perform short of Forced Induction.

Doug
 

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An LS2 is still just a Gen III with a specific cam and heads. LOTS of info if you know where to look. :)

Will Handzel's book is the best.

Jim G
 

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Before the supercharger mine would go over to 400 whenever I accelerated, now after the supercharger it goes all the way over past the 400 and hits the side. It reads about 150 at idle and climbs with the rpm's if you take it real easy. I still have not found what input is given to the gauge?????

I plan to buy another gauge pod and send it up to Classic Instruments to have voltmeter, Vacuum/Boost and Fuel Pressure. I want them to make the gauge faces look completely stock.
 

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Gen Iii 6.0?

Jim-

Im not a Chevy expert, but I don't think GM made a GEN III with the same CID, rod ratio, pistons and a few other goodies that the GEN IV has. Why would GM call it a GEN IV? The GEN III has had many Head/Cam/Intake variations over its life, but not with the same internals as the 6.0.

Sorry Jim, but I really can't agree with you on the 6.0 just being a Gen III with a Corvette Head and Cam.

The aftermarket is just now developing parts for this engine and lots of tuning software has yet to be written. Racers and tuners are just now getting some experience with moding this motor and its controls. Time will tell how this motor will respond to modifications and what will work and what won't to get the best bang for the buck. Thanks for the tip for looking at stuff for the GEN III, but I have a GEN IV and much of the work is still in progress as best I can find so far, let alone someone already having the time to get all that experience and write a book about it. :)

Sorry to make this response so long winded but my point is this is a new motor and time will tell what can be done with it. I will listen to the folks that have actually done things to these LS2 motors by trial and error that speak from experience when the time comes.

Doug
 

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Pushrods4ever said:
Jim-

Im not a Chevy expert, but I don't think GM made a GEN III with the same CID, rod ratio, pistons and a few other goodies that the GEN IV has. Why would GM call it a GEN IV? The GEN III has had many Head/Cam/Intake variations over its life, but not with the same internals as the 6.0.

Sorry Jim, but I really can't agree with you on the 6.0 just being a Gen III with a Corvette Head and Cam.

The aftermarket is just now developing parts for this engine and lots of tuning software has yet to be written. Racers and tuners are just now getting some experience with moding this motor and its controls. Time will tell how this motor will respond to modifications and what will work and what won't to get the best bang for the buck. Thanks for the tip for looking at stuff for the GEN III, but I have a GEN IV and much of the work is still in progress as best I can find so far, let alone someone already having the time to get all that experience and write a book about it. :)

Sorry to make this response so long winded but my point is this is a new motor and time will tell what can be done with it. I will listen to the folks that have actually done things to these LS2 motors by trial and error that speak from experience when the time comes.

Doug

Doug:

1. The Gen IV is defined as the versions of the engine that have "displacement on demand" ("DOD"). The LS2 does not meet that definition, even though some people, including some GM people, have referred to it as a Gen IV because it includes some of the phased in changes that are being made to accommodate DOD (relocated knock sensors, relocated cam sensor, extra oil passage, etc)

2. The same engine block, with VERY minor variations, has been used on ALL Gen III and now Gen IV engines (DOD available this year on some non-SSR products). The biggest variation in the block in fact is that it is available in either steel or aluminum. Our SSRs get the aluminum one. This one engine block is the new phased-in base for all non-Cadillac V8s in the GM line-up, cars AND trucks. It is used in ALL the displacements from 4.8 liters to 6.0 liters. SAME block, Doug.

3. The differences in connecting rods, cranks, and pistons are ONLY the differences needed to make the various different bores and strokes, and to get them balanced. ALL the rods, cranks, and pistons are made using identical processes, with some pistons getting anti-scuff coatings on the sides and coatings on top, as needed for some applications.

4. The only SIGNIFICANT differences are in the heads, intake manifolds, specific displacements, and cams used in different versions for different vehicles and markets. This is what makes the differnce between an 03 / 04 SSR and an 05 /06 SSR.

The LS2 is NOT a new engine different than the LS1 used in the earier C5 Corvettes, or the LM4 used in our 03 / 04 SSRs and now in the 06 Impala as an option. It is merely another minor variation of the generic Gen III engine that was deliberatelt designed to be THE universal V-8 engine for all GM poducts except the Cadillacs (and even they are now going to the Gen III for the performance models).

The reprogramming delays for your LS2 are due to one simple problem: The LS2 is one of the first GM engines to use the new "CAN" electronic communications architecture for its PCM and other onboard electronics. That new archtecture will eventuall be used on all GM models (being phased in). The aftermarket tuning software companies have not yet "reverse engineered" this adequately to start building consumer grade products. Beta versions are out, but not yet production tuning software or microtuners that can handle CAN.

You don't have to believe ME, Doug. Buy Will Handzel's book
"Chevy LS1 / LS6 V-8s"
and see for yourself all the specific details that I have tried to summarize above. Will should know what he is talking about: He is (or at least was at the time he wrote the book) the General Manager of the GM Performance Parts Division. His book demystifies your engine very nicely. You'll see that I am telling you the truth above.

I discuss this at length, and repeatedly, in my book.

And yes, it's more than just "theory" on my part or Will Handzel's. Using his info, and info from other sources, MTI Racing and I installed a Corvette LS6 cam and valvetrain, Supermaxx headers and hi-flow cats, and a true dual exhaust system, onto my 04 LM4 engine, and voila, got 05 SSR peak power levels, with a BETTER shaped power curve that is still climbing at 6500 rpm, with 12% less displacement than the 05 SSR, a lousier intake, poorer heads, and smaller intake valves. The Gen III engine hops up EASILY. :)

Don't let the merchants of "only WE know the secrets" fool you. You have a Gen III, not a Gen IV DOD, and it will hop up easier than you think - as long as you are not in California! :)

Jim G
 

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I don't think anyone is implying that the engine is all new. It is a completely different block, I have spent time going over the blocks side by side. The LS2 is being referred to as a mini C5R block. The lower webbing is reinforced and the coolant passages are different as compared to the LS1. The entire rotating assembly is interchangeable between the LS1 and LS2 as it is between the C5R and LS1. The cams and heads are just LS6 heads and the cam is the 2001 385 HP Z06. As stated the DOD has changed a few things around like the knock sensors and the reluctor for the crank. The LS2 can and is being retrofitted to LS1 cars using the LS1 computers, check a site out called LS1Tech as they are doing a lot of this already.
 

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"Don't let the merchants of "only WE know the secrets" fool you."

Jim- I don't let any information from books or merchants claims about any performance improvements with engines fool me. I have been hot rodding cars starting with Ford flatheads up through 4 cam blown motors using custom tunes for over 40 years. I have been on racing pit crews and spent many hours with engine builders with VW's and small block Fords. When I do read some claims from merchants, or so called facts in books by claimed experts, I find many claims to be amusing. Some merchants lead you to believe they are fact because they have some kind of DYNO sheet to "prove it". I do entertain facts from direct feedback from people actually using the modifications on the street or in a racing environment. Of course many mods made to racing engines do not apply to my street SSR. but some things may apply.

I also find it laughable that many folks get wrapped up with wheel Dyno results all the while forgetting that a wheel dyno is a tool and NOT a measuring device. In my experience they are used to diagnose problems or to observe changes when modifcations are made as compared to a baseline made with similiar conditions on the same dyno. Measuring one engine against another on a different wheel dyno under different conditions is not even close to being accurate due to the multitude of variables that cannot be controlled or accounted for. A wheel Dyno used in that manner is just a marketing tool and not a real tool for its intended use.

The experts I will listen to are the ones that have made the modifications and tried them in real life daily street, strip or course conditions. engine builders and the crew chiefs whom I know also are valuable sources. Oh and by the way they are mostly from California. CARB can be your friend here if your modified parts get certified, but that takes time too.

And by the way I do plan to buy your book and Handzel's too. Even though you and him are not from California :) I am curious how you found over 100 hp with a set of heads/cam and headers on a 5.3 L motor. I am also sure you both bring valuable facts about LS1/LS2 and the SSR in general to light from your experiences.

Doug
 

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Doug: You'll enjoy my Chapter 18 on dyno testing and dyno charts! You and I see dynos about the same way. :) I have published charts from a couple of big names in there that really make you think about the conditions under which they were generated.

As for the results on my 5.3 liter, I was practicing what I preach in Chapter 13 -working with a good team of professionals, as my personal combination of skillsets, tools, and facilities is too limited. And, as I have stated elsewhere in other threads, I couldn't take any risks, nor take the SSR off the road for long periods of time, as my SSR is not only my current hobby, it is also my ONLY daily transportation and has to be ready to go cross country (up to 2000 miles at a time) at a moment's notice! :)

I'm close to finishing the drafts of the remaining chapters. Only half of Chapter 19 and Chapter 20 to go. My editor is having trouble keeping up with me. Chapters 1 through 14 have already been sent out to the subscribers, and Chapter 15 will come out before next week.

Jim G
 
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